I want, first, to thank everyone who made the impossible nearly happen last night; mountains got moved just to create the opportunity to recall Gov. Walker, and those who moved them deserve our sincerest and strongest praise.
And congratulations to Senator-elect John Lehman–not to mention new Senate Majority Leader Mark Miller. I hope as one of the new Dem Senate’s first acts, they send a bill restoring collective bargaining rights for public employees and funding for schools to the Assembly. Let’s have the debate for real now, please.
**
The last thing I want to have people hear when I write this next part is “I told you so.” I don’t mean that, and I’m not trying to say that.
However, months ago I suggested that trying to recall Scott Walker was a bad idea. Some of what I worried about–that a new voter ID law would cause mass confusion or that Kathleen Falk, or, worse, Jon Erpenbach, would be the nominee–didn’t come to pass, and for that I think we can all be grateful.
But one thing I didn’t really consider back then, but which has been weighing on me these last weeks as last night approached, was just how difficult it really is to artificially put an inflection point on the pendulum-swing of public opinion, particularly when those trying are so focused on a single person or issue.
Give Wisconsin another year or two with Scott Walker, and they will hate him. Give Wisconsin another year or two of devastating school and municipal cuts, and they will revolt. Give Wisconsin another year or two of having the worst record of job creation in the midwest, and they will get the point. Assuming he’s not indicted and resigns, Scott Walker will have a hard time getting re-elected on the trajectory he’s set for himself.
But today, and especially yesterday, a big chunk of Wisconsin doesn’t see Walker that way. Rather, they see Walker as one of us, and the attacks on him only strengthened their resolve.
It’s tribalism–and I don’t mean that in a “conservatives are throwbacks to the stone-age” kind of way, but rather in a sociological sense. Walker is still in-group for Wisconsin’s conservatives; he displays all of the right cultural markers and says all of the right things and hasn’t yet–the way, say, George W. Bush had by 2006–been disowned by enough of them to make voting against him okay.
Think about this in terms of Mitt Romney: It has taken Romney six years of re-invention to get into the tribe. It doesn’t matter what, for example, Liberty University really believes about Mormonism or what the moderate son of a moderate midwestern governor believes about Liberty University; it only matters that speaking there (and speaking the right words there) makes Mitt one of us. At the same time, it’s very easy for some to think of Barack Obama as a foreign-born Muslim rather than an American Christian of the mainstream variety, because those are tribal markers, and Obama is not one of us so he can’t possess those markers.
This is not a Republican-only thing by any means. Democrats, however, are far worse at enforcing tribal norms. It’s why Ben Nelson can be a Democrat and piss all over the Affordable Care Act and then drop the mic and be all howdyalikeme now, beyotch? and still get retirement cookies from Harry Reid.
But back to Walker: For those of us out of the tribe, it is stunning that someone so baldly bad at the job can be so revered. This whole John Doe, in particular, drives me nuts that Walker supporters just don’t see anything there worth worrying about, that Walker pretty clearly had knowledge of campaigning from his own office and deputies, pretty clearly appointed a sticky-fingered embezzler to be in charge of money for war widows and orphans, and pretty clearly played favorites with big campaign donors. Allegedly, etc., disclaimers and whatnot. Instead, what they see is an attack on the in-group, an attack on the tribe, and the predictable result is not shame and anger at Walker, but fighting back. The John Doe, to the tribe, is a partisan witch hunt being conducted by anti-Walker zealots who take great joy in leaking only the damaging details to a liberal media that gleefully smears the in-group.
Having daily barrages of Walker-is-your-friend and they’re-out-to-get-you blaring from the radio makes it easier, of course, as does a tidal wave of corporate cash raised in unlimited amounts to blanket the airwaves.
Getting the tribe to disown its own members isn’t something you can accelerate easily; indeed, trying to just makes them fight back harder. It will happen, and it will hopefully happen fast with Walker (you can already imagine Walker getting the “Bush was no true conservative” treatment).
In the meantime, it’s pretty clear that Wisconsin’s vote for Obama in November is not assured, and that we need to do everything we can to win that, hold the State Senate, hold Kohl’s seat with Tammy Baldwin, and take back the Assembly. This will not be easy or cheap. Time to get back to work.
Make sure Tate & Zielinski lead the charge. They seem to be doing so well.
For most people, the one and only concern they have with government is that their taxes be cheap. Unless and until something utterly dramatic happens that forces them to make a connection between what they pay in taxes and what they get in services, they will always vote for the person who cuts taxes or promises to. For them to see the light, it will take the equivalent of garbage piling up on their porches or sewage backing up in their basement. The slow erosion of schools, the gradual decline of municipal services, will make no impression whatsoever. Until things get unspeakably bad, people like Grover Norquist and Paul Ryan and Scott Walker will have the public eating out of their hands.
Your Tribe lost…get over it!
You obviously did not read the post. You may want to do that before shouting your ignorance.
I obviously did read the post – with my eyes wide open. Why do you think people are ignorant – because they don’t drink the kool-aid ? Please, don’t be a sore loser… Hating Governor Walker and admiring Obama makes your continued misery a sure thing. Maybe time to rethink your position ?
Personally, I frame my thinking in terms of policy and not people. I agree with folkbum that another two years of Walker’s policies should be enough to sink him, that is if the Feds don’t get him first.
Let me ask you a simple, direct, no bullshit question:
What would Walker have to do for you to abandon your support of Scott Walker?
Please be specific. Just tell me what it would take.
If he’s indicted for corruption?
If he embezzles?
If he murders someone?
If he impales babies on spikes?
We already know that his last-in-the-nation economy won’t do it.
Please tell me. What would it take?
This was similar to my first thought on hearing the news – how much worse does Wisconsin have to get before people stop voting against their own interests?
Susan, that’s exactly part of the problem. Who elected YOU to tell me what my interests are and how I should vote to further them? Instead of “trust the people to make decisions” we now have “the people are ignorant and can’t be trusted.” Talk about elitist.
What are your interests, then?
I kind of feel like the message (from the other side) has been I should be scared of “them” that “they” are taking something away from me and the “they” is a band of union “thugs.” I am not sure why your side thinks shrinking someone’s income is going to make my life better, but that seems to be the message and they are assuming that’s my interest, too.
I don’t think people are ignorant, I think people are concerned for their financial well-being – and there are a bunch of smart, polished and well-financed interests playing on that fear. When the voice or leader is young, relatively attractive and makes it sound easy and more certain, it is easy to see why people would vote for him.
Of course, it is not that easy. If it was, he would have created boatloads of jobs already.
With all due respect, who designated YOU, Tim, as narcissistic citizen despot? Perhaps you are unaware that in a REPUBLIC voting is a CIVIC responsibility. In the event you need reminding CIVIC does not pertain exclusively to an INDIVIDUAL or PERSONAL concern but to the GREATER GOOD – the PUBLIC GOOD, hence the term CIVIC. If you can’t figure out that your interests are not yours and yours alone and everyone else’s interests entail yours; if you absorb conservative redefinition of elitism to the extent you could become indignant over Susan’s comment by suggesting some infringement of your personal sovereignty then heaven help you. Elitism pertains to AUTHORITY and INFLUENCE of a small number of persons within the larger political structure. Furthermore, In a REPUBLIC, VOTING means WE not I; the interests of the voter within a REPUBLIC mean OUR not MINE. That’s exactly part of the problem, Tim. The people can be trusted to make decisions, and they decided to recall Scott Walker.
why do you feel like what you’re saying is more important if you do it in CAPS?
Sparke,
If your comment was directed to me, my answer is Quentin Fiore.
As in “consciousness can be affected by the knowing collision of verbal and visual information”
Love it!
As usual, “what PJ said”. . .
Just relax. Perhaps PJ just wants to emphasize certain segments of his/her comment. Everyone has a different writing style.
Yeah, it’s not like it’s an UNCOMMON technique or anything. . .
Relax….PJ is on our side, hence why I’m not rushing to criticize the caps.
I am relaxed. I was agreeing with you. I use caps in the way that PJ did in order to put emphasis on a word all the time.
I agree with what PJ says so much of the time that now, instead of forgoing the writing of my own comment, and writing, “What PJ said”, I just use the short-handed “WPJS”.
I prefer to use bold, italics, or underline to make my point, but to each his own.
And you are an emphasis master, no arguing that. My choice of caps was two fold. One a commentary – absurd exaggeration to unfold Tim’s use of YOU and juxtaposition of type size in the manner of Quention Fiore. Admittedly I’m no Quentin Fiore, alas, yet Entrenched Too Deep In Bibliographic Morass. 🙂
Oh – and Caps for pacing as well – slowing it down, that is. The effort was to weave the pace at the risk of an implied shout. For me, visually, it’s obvious because of the word choice in caps, but I could certainly understand how it could be read differently – not visually.
You’re right Phil….to each his own.
Here’s how I look at today — here’s the headline that we will not see:
Walker Calls Special Sesson to Push Right-to-Work Law, Privatizing of Public Employee Pension Fund, and More on ALEC Agenda
Why? Because we won the goal, which was to stop Walker. Because you can bet that was the plan after winning his so-called “mandate” aneww.
We won the first step last summer, we won the second step last night (well, this morning), because The Other Scott is out of power! (so surviving his recall will not be as fun for him, haha) — and because we would not have won in Racine, in a race so close, without the statewide race to boost turnout there, bring Barrett and Mahlon Mitchell there (I look forward to data on turnout of Racine’s African American community), and bring funding support there.
We won. We stopped Walker. And it’s a win-win for me, because Tom Barrett is still my mayor — and thus for all of us, because no one was in the wings who could continue his efforts such as revitalization of the Menomonee Valley and more, much more here.
We knew we were going to have to win in stages, not in a day. We won stage one, we won stage two, and now on to cementing more state Senate seats, taking back the Assembly, too — and resuming the discussion of Walker’s criminal ways, which will become clear to Wisconsinites who were wary of recall unless they saw clear evidence of that. It’s coming.
John Lehman won, against the anti-recall tide that kept Walker in power despite
a decent majority of those voting supporting Obama, because he ran a solid campaign
backed by 14 years of strong service he had already given the community, and demonstrating Wangaard
more represented outside interests and blind allegiance to Walkers agenda.
Wangaard received more than 10,000 fewer votes than Walker did in Racine!
I’m taking wagers on whether the State or Federal indictment will come first for Walker
and how many think he will try and continue governing while going to trial!
Wangaard received 10,000 fewer votes in Racine because the Senate district is smaller than Racine County. If you look at the vote totals Walker and Wangaard tracked the same. Testament to a solid GOTV effort for for Dems and having Racine be one of the few counties where he did worse than he did in 2010.
Wow I only read the first two paragraphs and could not even bring myself to read more. As someone who has been in the fight from the beginning I can’t believe what I’m reading and what’s worse is I can’t believe what people are buying. How anyone could be considered worse than Barrett by anyone involved in this movement today is beyond my comprehension. I was a supporter of Kathleen Falk but threw my total support behind Barrett and even started to believe in him until last night when he put the knife in the back of this movement. How dare he concede until all of the votes were counted. People were still in line to vote. All of Dane County and Milwaukee county votes were not in and he conceded? People voted by Absentee ballot for a week before the elections to ensure their votes were counted and because of Barrett’s concession now they won’t count. The GAB said that they think they will finish counting them by the end of the week. The problem with that is that even if the votes turned the election Barrett already conceded. I’d like to know who was behind the big push to get this large population of progressives to vote absentee. Things in this election stink to the high heavens. I can not believe the number of people who are buying into the narrative that we lost, the money bought it & our GOTV efforts could not win out over the money. How can anyone come to a conclusion when the candidate conceded when the majority of the base for him had votes left uncounted.
I will not be lifting a finger for the Democratic party this was a betrayal of trust piled on all of the previous betrayals.
All the absentee ballots are counted, except for ones that were still in the mail last night. Probably a very small amount.
Also, Barrett’s “concession” matters not one bit if the election does turn. But it won’t. There aren’t 180k outstanding ballots.
Anger is normal and healthy, but you still have to be right about the facts.
Jay’s exactly right. While I was disappointed Mayor Barrett conceded, I knew he did so only after the math became impossible.
I’m still hoping Kathy Nicklaus will deliver 200k votes for us…
Political Fodder, yes, please check your facts.
Mayor Barrett did. Of course, the man who repeatedly has been seen at polling sites in several elections — I just read another account of this on another blog — leading his troops in with staff and supplies to cope with unexpected lines . . . of course, he called first to City Hall to be sure that the last voter had cast a ballot. That was at 9:30. He didn’t speak for another half an hour. You could have read this in the Journal Sentinel, picked up by other papers (via AP), so why didn’t you want to do so?
And as noted above, the facts about how absentee ballots are not news; they are rules that have been followed for ages and are easily found online, are reiterated by news media every election — so why didn’t you lift a few fingers to your keybaord to look this up? Why didn’t you listen?
As for the rest . . . oh, fuggedaboudit. Enjoy being a victim so betraaaaaaayed.
Where can we find the final numbers on the election?
In Racine County they are posted on the County’s website. I can’t speak for other voting districts.
Very good post, and I feel the same way. Walker will go down eventually and maybe this state has to get even worse for people to understand how bad they’ve been lied to. For God sakes, 38% of union households voted for this man.
I think the unions should also take a hard look at themselves. (I belong to one of the biggest ones) I also live in rural northern Wisconsin. The leaders of the unions in this state in most cases are from Milwaukee and Madison. They think in a whole different way then we do up here. North of Wausau, there are very few unionized facilities. We also have the lowest wages and highest unemployment areas in the state. But my point is no one even takes the rural areas seriously and that’s a mistake.
Secondly, many of us thought this recall should have waited until the 2012 Presidential election, which would have given the John Doe investigation, time to unravel. In rural areas, people were talking about the huge cost of these recalls and there not being a good enough reason for them. But the decisions, like always, come from people who think differently than rural people do, even though they may share the same belief system.
Think about the protests over Act 10. How many people were there for totally different reasons than collective bargaining? But again, you didn’t hear that story because the unions made it all about them. Their egos are as huge as Scott Walker’s and if they don’t take a look in the mirror, it will also be their downfall.
I come from that other tribe–just so you know.
But has anyone considered that Walker won the recall, not as part of some shadowy conspiracy or thinly veiled country club/racist identity, but because people agree with the changes he has made? Perhaps, just perhaps, people were not duped by corporate–or union money–but rather understood the issues fairly well, evaluated the candidates, and made an honest choice?
Perhaps, people were upset about the rush to push these measures through the legislature, but then they had to sit through 17 months of childish gimmicks and jackassedness. Do you think the people of wisconsin really like it when large crowds shut down a neighborhood to personalize the attacks before the home of the govenor’s wife and children? High debate, that.
Perhaps, for example, people remember that when Doyle cut education, lots of teachers got fired. I think a whole lot of Wisconsinites would say not so with Walker. And it could go on and on.
Perhaps, people also remember when the Democrats used to be about better government, not bigger government; but that’s not the perception anymore. Barrett never offered a plan, he merely prattled on about the john doe and walker’s defense fund–nobody gives a rip about that. They had no reason to doubt Walker’s integrity. But the issue certainly is not a jobs plan, is it?
And then the corporate money meme…. The ALEC meme….the Koch Brothers…. Tacky. Tired. Old. And not a jobs plan.
Talk all you want about tribes and identity. But here is the powerful impulse which drove so many on the right to vote (in my humble opinion): Walker is trying to fix the problem, not obfuscating and delaying. So many of us just want a leader who will solve the problem–even if it costs us, and I’m a teacher, so I’ve paid a lot–but not as much as the people I know who’ve lost their jobs.
Is the best you’ve got really: “I hope things go to sh$t and then we can win?” Pathetic. You should be ashamed.
I know that I’m not a member of your tribe, but I like to read lefty blogs to know how you’re thinking. In all of this–from day one till now–I heard no real alternate plan to Walker’s, but I’ll be waiting for a real plan from the left as to how to move the state forward. Perhaps you should find some candidates who can promote an actual idea bigger than a two-mile train.
Patrick, I was interested and ready for discussion . . . and then you had to go with the mindless meme at the end. At least you didn’t diss a wide-ranging, integrated plan for urban transportation infrastructure as a “trolley,” so I’ll give you points for not parroting the worst of your tribe. 🙂
But that also underscores your message throughout, that Barrett didn’t have plans for the state in budgeting, education, and much more. Not so.
Did you go to his speeches to hear him talk on those, or did you just rely on the pro-Walker media that blankets this state? Not only on slanted “news” but also on soundbytes in ads that blanketed the state? You don’t seem the sort to allow yourself to be manipulated by advertising, not just for pols but for any products. So did you go around the media to seek out information? Did you go to Barrett’s website to see his plans? If not, why not — and why claim that something doesn’t exist that does, easily found with minimal effort, even if you didn’t go hear him?
We have much in common. You’re intelligent, you’re interested in other points of view (I visit your tribal blogs, too, because we all ought to escape our comfy caves:-), you offer intriguing opportunity for discussion . . . until I have to wonder how you can make unsupportable statements, which so clearly belie the other characteristics.
So perhaps you can help me understand and bridge this barrier that we all see: Is this an example of one of Jay’s points, I think, that too many — on both sides — do not want to seek out information that just might counter their preconceptions?
Migosh:
I read Barrett’s website from start to finish. Don’t tell me it was anything but vague. To me it was the kind of plan you post when you don’t have a plan. I also watched the debates when he was asked repeatedly to articulate a plan and had nothing to say. Are you suggesting I couldn’t follow them? Or that a majority of Wisconsinites couldn’t?
Certainly, there was little or no discussion of these “plans” anywhere on the “lefty” blogs menus. Did I miss all the posts about Barrett’s education plans? If they weren’t important enough for you to take seriously, why should I? Search for Barrett and education on this site or any other lefty site and what do you get? At best: Walker sucks. Meanwhile, Walker has been reforming teacher evaluation and working on the common core standards with Evers.
Meanwhile look at the stuff for sale here:Walker “pretty clearly appointed a sticky-fingered embezzler to b e in charge of money for war widows and orphans.” Is the author really suggesting that Walker appointed an embezzler? A guy at Barrett’s office choked his girlfriend. Does this mean that Barrett hired a girl-choker? Wake up. If Walker is charged and found guilty that is an entirely different thing–as it would be for you if Barrett were the target of a republican D.A. So the public doesn’t give a rip.
Look, sorry if I come across as rude and troggish (take these away and I have no personality) but I think that as you move forward as “progressives” you must consider that the voters are better informed than ever, that they are not stupid, and that they want democrats who are going to offer solutions. Walker offered a solution. He was rewarded.
Tell you what: If I were the new Senate majority leader I’d ask the govenor to recall the legislature to get the mining bill done. Be a part of the solution; that’s how you rebuild credibility. Democrats need jobs, too.
No Thank you, Wormtongue.
erm that was directed at Patrick, not Migosh.
Sparke? You don’t want to be a part of the solution?
Patrick,
You score some important points, most notably your howling about Barrett’s lack of a plan. I’ve howled about the same thing myself on numerous occasion as well as howling about amorphous policy making by “Lefty” policymakers. I prefer “Lefty” to “Leftist” – feel free to address me as “Lefty” if you so choose. At any rate, I would like to see more comprehensive progressive legislation. But let’s be clear about what comprehensive legislation really means – conservatives are quite accomplished in the arena of policymaking that encapsulates conservative values, and Newt Gingrich in a brief but glaring moment of forthrightness (or call it a gaffe) named this precision driven policy making for what it is – social engineering.
You are half-right when you suggest that a great many voters agreed with Walker’s “reforms” concomitantly dismissing any “shadowy conspiracy” behind his campaign. They certainly bought into it alright, as one might expect under the circumstances Scott Walker “engineered.” I would contend that the merit of Walker/GOP legislation is slimmer than paper thin and appears meaningful only because the messaging that shaped it in that light was so very effective.
I would ask you to elaborate and defend your contention that “large crowds shut down a neighborhood to personalize the attacks before the home of the governor’s wife and children.” I will eagerly debate that with you, sir. If you are referring to the Wauwatosa vigil just as the Madison protests began – I was there then. There were no “crowds” shutting down the neighborhood. There was one well mannered – law abiding – respectful – and grateful to the police department “crowd” circling on the sidewalk from Wells Street to Wisconsin Avenue. There were no Ad Hominem “attacks” against the governor. And yes, quite a number of residents liked it and offered the protestors a spot on their lawns to proudly display their protest signs. If you are prepared to argue that peacefully protesting at the home of an elected official is “bad form” then you will need to be prepared to defend all forms of right wing protest where family members are witness. For starters, protesting at veterans’ funerals and maligning deceased veterans while their families try to grieve in peace and dignity. High debate, that.
People remember when the Democrats used to be about better government, not bigger government? One of my favorite Tea Party delicacies. My favorite teacake flavor as it happens. If you’d like to debate but preferably discuss “big” government versus small – the merits of each, and what the founding fathers intended with the term “limited government” well that would be dandy. I’m sure there are many who’d like to join in on that one. It would be lively and illuminating, I’m sure. Here’s my disclaimer: I’m not a Democrat.
The corporate money meme: Tacky? Tired? Old? Only if you are disengaged from the democratic process and you simply don’t concern yourself with how the inner workings of your government operate. I think if you were fully aware of the extent to which interests that are not your own determine the limen of your individual liberties you’d not be so flippant. For my part, I think donning such willful blinders is not only foolish but akin to just flipping off the founders of this country. The American flag is not a logo, but what the hell, eh? Logo? Symbol? Same thing, right?
And while you are at it, maybe just spit on the founding fathers’ graves. That’s what you do each time your tribe demeans those who exercise their constitutional rights by reducing legitimate grievance to hissy fits. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Giving support for legally abolishing the labor rights of your fellow citizens… I dare say that decision will someday come bite y’all in the patoot. ‘scuse my french. Since you’ve set the founders turning in their graves you might want to eruct some spittle on those founders while their noble corpses are spinning in consternation and dismay. That’s what you’re doing. Don’t ever forget it.
I’d say, Wake up back at ya: John Doe, a Fed investigation, stonewalling for two years, a criminal defense fund and a slew of staffers arrested? Not just any staffers – Walker’s own hand-picked crew – those who were closest to him. And he in charge of them. No reason to doubt his integrity? Even if he was not party to any of their activities, my word, can you not concede that his judgment is deplorable? But if you did even that, no – you’d have to wonder, maybe even reconsider Walker’s fitness for office based on his inglorious term as Milwaukee County Executive. Ick. Ugly can of worms to face up to, I suppose. Your hypothetical analogy is ludicrous because it isn’t analogical to the Walker situation. “A guy at Barrett’s office” is just that “A guy at Barrett’s office” not a longstanding associate and member of his political cadre. The act of an individual is not a parallel, and it is not political collusion nor does it involve the assets of the public nor the integrity of the office as is Walker’s apparent situation. If you or Walker’s supporters don’t give a rip about these investigations how can anyone be expected to take you seriously? The public deserves to know more than what Walker is willing to reveal on this matter. He’ll just keep blubbering the Goebbels Goo – Leftist attack! Leftist attack! Now, that’s getting Tacky, Tired, and Old. Don’t you ever, you know, question? Question whether or not the criticisms leveled against him are legitimate? Or is any criticism from the Left illegitimate?
No, you don’t sound rude and troggish (a fine word, that), but you do sound immoral and woefully ill informed.
I commend you for identifying what it is that conservatives are looking for in a leader. As you describe it, it sounds similar to what Leftys like me, myself, and I want. But we don’t want our foundations ripped out from underneath us in order to get to the myriad answers needed to genuinely move Wisconsin forward. We won’t ever have the capacity to get to those answers with our foundations gone. There’s your final solution. There are creative ways to get to where we need to go; we need a creative thinker, not one like Walker who thus far has only parroted solutions that may appeal in the minds of right wing ideologues but quickly recede from sanity when implemented in the real world. I’ll throw you a bone: Tom Barrett may be more status quo than my ideal candidate, but he’s a man of decency and integrity. The same cannot be said of Scott Walker.
Need we take his fundraising pity party to task? Boo hoo, mercy me, no choice but to “compete” with the massive union monies just pouring in on “the other side”? Oh yes, those fundraising totals ($31 million vs. $4 million) and the extension of time weaseled out to raise it proved the truth of that talking point very plainly. If he had raised $31 million from Wisconsin conservatives living inside Wisconsin, I’d be impressed. He did not. And I’m not. So much for states rights and all that…
And finally, I hold this up as a glass for you to reflect upon: “Is the best you’ve got really: “I hope things go to shit and then we can win?” Was that a Folkbum quote? It is pathetic and shameful, but surely you must realize that Folkbum merely predicted voters would reject Scott Walker once they felt the pain he inflicts. What you “quote” is the national GOP/Tea Party strategy that has been in place since 2008. Even worse, they not only hope for things to go to (I need a euphemism here), but they actively crash the economy for political gain. Tsk. Tsk. Tsk. Political warfare and using the public as pawns is not good governance, yet seems to be the Right Side Tribal Strategy Deluxe these days.
PJ:
Regarding the protests at Walker’s home in Waukesha–I do hold that these are tacky and would more likely turn people off to your cause. To hold a vigil at the Gov’s Mansion in Madison is different. I would likewise agree that the protests by some truely radical right wing groups–for example those extremists from that sickening one southern church (I forget the name)who protest against gays–are disgusting, horrible, and repulsive. They are far, far worse than the people who gathered at Walker’s house. For the record, there is no comparison.
I likewise share your concern about money in politics, but I look at the situation somewhat differently, I think. The public is well aware that both sides dump money into elections, pay people to lobby, etc… I think that an honest person might have to concede, however, that when one group is a primary money sponsor of the elected officials who are asked to vote on their contracts, the taxpayer does not have the advantage. Please note that I am not suggesting there are not abuses on both sides, but rather that to constantly harp on corporate money does not sound convincing to a public which knows that corporations, unions, trade groups, and many other types of organizations give and expect in return.
I’m not entirely unconcerned with the john doe situation, but I believe that men are innocent until proven guilty, not guilty unless they do what I want them to do. Perhaps that is the difference. As for the Fed investigation, the possibility was only mentioned in the istmus and some other hopeful lefty blogs. Not the strongest sources in my mind, but if they find something, I’ll try to consider the matter as honestly as possible. What more would you have of me? Should I turn on every politician or government servant merely accused or investigation?
The lefty criticism of Walker’s removal of collective bargaining is legitimate–much more legitimate–than criticisms of the john doe because it is a fact that Walker ended those rights, but since no court has established the facts on Walker re the john doe, it is not as legitimate. But here’s how the public looks at it: Rightys only make a stink when a lefty is in trouble; lefty’s only make a stink when a righty is in trouble. Neither group as a whole really cares about the specifics since both groups are interested in power first.
As for fundraising… Walker followed the rules. He spent more. This is a race that many claimed had national implications. National Lefty organizations didn’t give a crap about the cause or Barrett. What else is there to say?
Fianlly, this. The left is to be praised for the following. They actually do care about people and about fairness and equality. The left is upset that people are in need of basic necessities and a better quality of life. The leftys are more open to new experience and new ways of doing things. These, I think, are the dominate core of liberalism at its best. Conservatives share these values, but may place other values higher. In my personal life I can appeal to leftys when I appeal to these values–because I call on what is best in them.
Patrick,
Now which Patrick is this? Are you the far left leaning liberal from the nuns post or are you the equivocating conservative from this tribe post? Or are the two of you one and the same? In which case along with Paul and Not Paul we have Patrick Left and Patrick Right. Or maybe what we have are Not Patrick and Not Patrick but something else altogether. In any case:
First, the protest you find so tacky occurred in Wauwatosa, not Waukesha. I find your confusion between the two suspiciously unusual.
Second, The Westboro Baptist Church is the perfect comparison/contrast. What you’ve argued for is narrowing the boundaries of acceptable criticism by framing the Wauwatosa vigil as a personalized attack which, among other things, delegitimizes it. I’m sure you’re aware that this is precisely Romney’s new campaign strategy – any criticism against his Bain experience amounts to a personalized attack. It’s the new buzz on the right, isn’t it- the personalized attack? Its swarming everywhere. Now, the Westboro funeral protests are vicious, damaging, personalized attacks. The Wauwatosa vigil was a protest of policy and of an elected official. Back down with “I think it’s just tacky” if you will, but let’s flesh out what you’re really doing here. If you are going to level a charge like “personalized attack” know what it is and what it means.
Third, I am quite familiar with the perspective you describe about money in politics. For the record, I’m for banning lobbying and campaign contributions altogether. And no, you are not being at all honest in your assessment of money in politics. You’ve outlined a radical, propagandist argument. Either you are lying or you are duped. Lying on this thread or lying to yourself – I’m not going to decide. Your argument instantiates an impropriety in the relationship between public unions and elected officials. What you’ve argued is that it is an improper relationship that victimizes taxpayers. You improperly conflate private and public. What you are attempting to do is to cement in the mind a pay to play corruption case and you are painting the public union as the corrupt piece. The public sector does not and should not operate like the private sector, for one. Public sector unions were devised to prevent crony capitalism and private sector special interest corruption. Public unions are not special interest groups. You’re essentially making the recent Daniels argument for abolishing public sector unions: government sits at both sides of the negotiating table, meaning conflict of interest. Wrongheaded and oversimplified rendering unto meaninglessness and confusion.
Fourth, How smoothly you relay what the public thinks and what the public knows. What the public thinks and how it thinks does not derive naturally from a collective “fair and balanced” consensus of mind as you infer. What the public thinks and knows is, as I’ve stated before – engineered. And in the recall situation – public perception has been engineered and propped up by a most hideous right wing propaganda campaign.
Fifth, I agree. Innocent until proven guilty regarding John Doe. But given your excessive concern about the mere appearance of corruption and impropriety with money in politics, don’t you think you’ve employed a rather bizarre double standard with Walker and John Doe? So quickly willing you are to obliterate corruption if it means obliterating unions. Yet, you handily disregard not simply a smoking gun, but one with barrels turning. So, you’d just prefer to chance it? That’s some kind of strange cognitively dissonant russian roulette. Kind of undermines integrity. Completely.
Thank you for your praise of Lefty values and perhaps I’ll see you again on the nuns thread if that is you.
I get a little nervous when the word “solution” is used in this way. It’s been coupled with another word with final results.
That aside, it is never a “solution” to attack the livelihoods of good citizens. That is exactly what Scott walker has done simply to advance a political agenda. He has inspired an attitude of resentment toward others. I don’t believe for a second he cares at all about the 46 percent.
Can’t wait for the indictments. Oh, and btw, Patrick … your commentary may be well-rehearsed with a modicum of thought, but you sorely overestimate the majority of your co-followers. All you have to do is read some of their comments at this blog to understand.
You guys crack me up. One of you says cutting into the livelihood of others shouldn’t be a solution. Ok so using this logic we should never raise taxes, oh wait…taxes them selves cut into our livelihood so we should abolish them to. You guys are classic.
What Carlos said…
You guys are great! “it is never a “solution” to attack the livelihoods of good citizens” Really? Really?!!! So what you just said is that we should NEVER (using caps to accentuate the important part) raise taxes on anyone including the richest one percent. WAIT! We shouldn’t have taxes at all by that definition.
“That is exactly what Scott walker has done simply to advance a political agenda.” So what you are now saying is, (and I’m paraphrasing here) we shouldn’t allow our elected leaders to advance the causes we elected them to champion. Hmmmmmmmm…….. so we should pay them to do what exactly? By your assertions we should not allow them to advance an agenda the majority supports and they can’t raise taxes or spend them, so what exactly do you want them to do?
Look i didn’t want Obama to run the country but thr majority did. He advanced an agenda I didn’t care for with my tax dollars. But unlike you I got over it and will do my best to get more to vote for Mr. Romney in November. What happened here in Wisconsin hopefully will never happen again from both sides. Walker should have communicated more with the public and the people apposed to his reforms should have acted as adults and allowed him and the other elected officials to do the jobs they were elected to do. Instead you threw a fit and turned a lot of people agaisnt your cause. I might have stood beside you had you not gotten so out of control. My wife is 37 and has never voted in her life but she felt this whole recall madness was nothing more then a child’s temper tanturum so she registered and voted against you. Not for walker per se but against you.
Keep this in mind when November comes and the Republicans retake the Senate. You have awakened the conservative movement and you only have yourselves to blame.
Interesting post and comments, especially the hand-wringing over blue-collar Republicans voting against their greater (abstract) interests.
I have no argument with that. But then there’s the call for Obama in November. Huh? Talk about voting against your interests! The irony is thick.
To save space, here’s a nice summary of the issues with Obama, including the ususal “lesser evil” and Supreme Court nominee red herrings arguments:
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2012/05/barack-obama-the-great-deceiver.html
Also add that Obama didn’t step foot in Wisconsin during the entire recall process. I’ve seen so-called Dems apologize for this as the “smart” move. I’d say its calculating and cowardly to leave the heart and soul of your base out in the cold.
But I guess you “Charlie Brown” progressives are ready to take another kick at President Lucy’s football in November.
If you are not outraged, then you are not paying attention!
IMHO, Obama is completely unworthy. The only reason to back Obama, even nominally, is to help strengthen the WISCONSIN democrats, especially state senators and representatives, that will be up for reelection in November.
Let’s get to work– FOR WISCONSIN.
It was a very disappointing night and had John Lehman not won a terrible night. Had Dems won two State Senate seats then I would feel better about the effort by being more likely to allow Dems to hold the State Senate after November and blocking Walker because Holperin’s seat will be lost.
Right now Walker is maybe the best thing that happened for the Republican Party in Wisconsin in a long time but that changes if charges are brought in John Doe and I would be willing to bet some future mortgage payments that it will happen. If he is convicted, and hopefully by the Feds since I wouldn’t want to see a state conviction overturned by the Republicans on the State Supreme Court, he will be the worst thing that happened to them. It will cost Republicans a lot of seats in both houses like it did Republicans nationally in 1974 even in Republican leaning districts.
@Carlos By your comment I see that you support classes of people being attacked and abused for political gain … in this case public sector workers and teachers.
Your comment about taxation is foolish. You seem to have forgotten we pay taxes as well. If you’re referring to the super-wealthy and corporations as being the ones subjected to abuse, well all anyone is asking they pay their fair share. Balancing a budget on the backs of people who have not received a pay raise for five years and are paid less than the private industry norm is abuse. Balancing a budget on the backs of the poor is abuse.
Frankly, your comment is abusive.
That your 37 year-old wife has never voted is shameful.
@The Other Side, clearly your public school education is lacking the depth mine gave me. I realize my tax comment is foolish…that was the point. I was using the previous person’s comment to show that.
As for the supposed abuse the public sector is being put under, grow up. Try life in the private sector. I get no pension, I have a 401k that I contrinute 100% of my retirement to since the economy went to hell and they stopped matching the 2% they used to, I have a 5000 dollar deductable per occurance health plan that cost me over 900 a month to cover my family and I make 36,000 a year for an honest days work. Cry me a river about your amazing health plan that you now have to pay a couple hundred bucls a month for and your pension plan that you now have to pay a percent of your income into now. I haven’t gotten a raise in three years and in fact I’ve taken a pay cut with my company raising the cost of my health plan each year and ending the 401k matching. Try making a living in the private sector before you complaim about how bad you think you have it.
As for my wife not voting until now I agree it is a shame. But I am very proud of her for voting in this election. For the record our 5th anniversary is in August so it took me 7 years to finally get her to vote but it was her passion against the crying unions that got her fired up. So I guess I owe you a thank you for that one.
@Carlos: Let’s clear up one false assumption on your part; I too work in the private sector, make a bit more than you, have the same sort of benefits and do a damn good job.
The difference between us is I’m not a whiner, I haven’t allowed myself to be swayed by talk show nonsense, and consequently am not filled with thrall-like bitterness and resentment toward others.
And I pay taxes.
Regarding the depth of your public school education: perhaps you should move on and graduate. Or do you just like bullying the little kids? (sarcasm, btw)
Yep. I’m the whiner. You are right. Clearly I’ve been wronged by walkers polices and I protested at the capitol, and interupted the special Olympics in zombie make-up, and spent 18 million on a do over, I felt that even though our governor was elected to fix a 3 billion dollar deficit I didn’t want him to really do it… yep clearly I’m the whiner in tjis relationship. But I am enjoying our sparing.