Dems to introduce high capacity magazine bill

House Democrats plan to introduce a bill that will ban the production of high capacity ammunition magazines on the first day of the next congressional session, January 3rd, 2013.  Though the bill has few, if any, Republican co-sponsors, Wisconsin’s Tom Petri (R-Fond du Lac) has already signaled that he might be in favor of such legislation.  Petri to the fdlreporter:

One thing that might be helpful, which I have supported in the past, is to limit the size of the (ammunition) clip,” Petri said.

Apparently none of Petri’s NRA member/constituents have expressed outrage at his failure to distinguish between ammunition magazines and clips.

49 comments to Dems to introduce high capacity magazine bill

  • Smokey

    I\’m an NRA Member,and proud of it. I used to be one of Tom\’s constituents, and I am outraged by his lack of knowledge. There are so many words that while they are used interchangeably today, they are not interchangeable, and seriously muddle what could be an intelligent conversation. Maybe it has to do with education – clip being a single syllable word easily used by first graders… and magazine being a much more difficult to say and use 3 syllable word, learned at a higher level of education ?

    With a little practice, it takes about one second to replace a magazine… not much help is it? Instead, we should be focusing on the mental health issue, which underlies every one of these tragedy\’s – of course doing that wouldn\’t garner all the emotional headlines and gotcha moments for those insufferable talking heads on TV. I grieve for all who are affected by these horrible events, and am disgusted by all who do not make an honest effort to deal with the real problem.

    Typical of the House Democrats to work on stupid laws, while failing to pass intelligent legislation – maybe like …ah.. balanced budgets ?

       0 likes

    • Smokey,

      The misuse of clip for magazine seriously muddles what could be an intelligent conversation? How can anyone take you seriously when you write stuff like this?

         2 likes

      • Smokey

        It\’s easy! It gets the attention of those who don\’t know any better…and hopefully educates some of them. Life will get better as more and more people become educated. Just ask an English teacher. :-)

           0 likes

    • John Casper

      Smokey, in a dynamic tactical situation, with people firing at you, there\’s a one-second interval to pull the spent magazine out, grab the new one from ?????, replace it, and then resume firing?

      Please tell us what weapon you\’re using. Lay it out all out for us, how you accomplish all that in one-second.

      And since you know so much about \”balanced budgets,\” tell us what cuts you want House Dems to make and how much savings you anticipate from each one.

         0 likes

      • Smokey

        It\’s not a dynamic situation when you are shooting unarmed people. Short course – You don\’t pull the spent magazine out – you push a button with your trigger finger while your other hand grabs the new magazine and inserts it.. Fast work for anyone who has had any military or police training – or anyone else for that matter that is willing to practice…

        I only balance my own budget by not spending more money than I take in… It\’s a real simple method – on that politicians should embrace. One of the problems is that we pay them too much..they don\’t have to worry about where the money is coming from for their next medication refill or fuel oil delivery.

        You might give it a little thought instead of throwing around talking points….

           0 likes

    • Rich

      Okay Smokey, I\’ll bite. What is the \”real problem\”? And what are your specific solutions to that problem?

         0 likes

  • Gareth

    I grew up in a hunting family and we called them clips. You wouldn\’t have wanted to tell any of my family members that they were ignorant about guns. On another note, I believe most gun fetishists are rather ignorant about the variety of wounds that are inflicted on gun victims. That is, they don\’t care.

       0 likes

    • Smokey

      I\’ll ignore the comment about trying to educate your family… you have stated that\’s not possible… I will say that although I am not a \”gun fetishist\”I have seen far to many gunshot wounds, not to mention innocent beheaded and or mangled drivers and passengers in motor vehicle \”Accidents\” caused by drunken drivers… I invite you to help solve the problems instead of throwing around glib remarks.

         1 likes

  • independent guy

    It is true words have meaning and that is part of the reason the \”gun loop hole\” exists today.

    Regarding high capacity magazines, clips or whatever you want to call them, passing legislation such as this is feel good legislation as the genie is out of the bottle. There are thousands already in the hands of law abiding folks and whatever underground market there is for these will grow. I understand that the intent is get them out of the hands of mass murderers, but that just will not happen. And let\’s just say that magically all 30 round mags and the like just vaporize and disappear. The mass murderers will compensate with by using whatever is available to them, carry more legal handguns and more smaller mags. Six 5 round mags is as effective as one 30 round.

    It\’s a tough situation to actually deter crime and criminals by association. To \”ban\” mags, clips, bullets, etc. is an expensive distraction that won\’t work. Not my rules, just the way it is.

    All agree, doing nothing is not an option. But let\’s find solutions that protect citizens and begin to cure the ills of a sick society. To avoid this is just not responsible.

       0 likes

    • IG,

      How is banning these things expensive?

         0 likes

    • Smokey

      Feel good legislation that has been passed over the years is a big part of the problem. Make a new law – make people feel safe – but totally ignore the cause of the problem… and we are less safe than we were before.

         0 likes

      • Rich

        Ok Smokey, so let\’s hear what your solutions are. You haven\’t contributed anything concrete yet.

        You seem to have had a career in law enforcement. I am concerned that, thanks to the NRA, law enforcement agencies are unable to track firearms movements from one owner to the next. They are unable to trace weapons used in crimes against any kind of database, thereby stifling any chance of tracking down illegal weapons traffic. They are unable, by law in Wisconsin (thanks Scooter) from knowing who in their jurisdiction is holding a concealed carry permit, nor are they allowed to even ask.

        Just since Newtown, at least 4 police officers have died of gunshot wounds. It\’s a very dangerous world out there in law enforcement land. How do we make it safer?

           0 likes

        • Smokey

          you asked for specific solutions to the problem, so here\’s a couple:

          1. Education of the masses, on everything from firearm handling, safety,and responsibility. It amazes me that MADD concentrates on drivers instead of their deadly tools(cars), and the anti gun folks focus on the tools(guns) and not the \”drivers\”. It also amazes me that anti-anything folks think that the solution to problems is to scare the hell out of everyone…be it the president with obamacare or congress with social security as happens when a terrible incident such as the CN. shootings, and everybody piles on the NRA, a bunch of talking heads on TV go on and on and on night after night and report nothing that is news – but tons of propaganda – this after misreporting what is going on for several days before coming anywhere near the truth. Is this helping fix the problem ? I don\’t think so.

          2. Mental health awareness and helping those folks. Some years ago there was a big push to get people out of mental institutions of all kinds and get them back out on the street – where they have a right to be… Worked about as good as the no child left behind… do a little research if you are serious about being part of the solution instead of part of the problem. Loading some people up with medications can help some of them function pretty well, but the problem is that if they aren\’t supervised – and out on the street they are not – all of the medication in the world is not going to help them if they don\’t take it… Instead of looking at a person with mental problems with distaste, and agreeing that they are someone else\’s problem to deal with (the county, state, feds), it\’s time to take some personal ownership in the problem.

          3. I\’ve worked in public service with issues number 1 and 2 all my adult life, and I\’m now 72 years old. I can tell the readers of this blog that there is a 99.99999999999999999999999999999999 % chance that the only value to what I have written was the exercise therapy for my arthritic fingers. In all those years myself and others have received the same questions, provided the same answers, and other that the work we have personally done have seen no change. I\’m not patting myself on the back, nor am I looking for praise. All I\’m saying is that all of the speeches to community and church groups over the years who \”wanted to help\” yet did no follow up to actually do anything…did nothing but make them feel better for having a meeting to address the problem…and totally wasted the time of the law enforcement and mental health folks who took the time to make the presentation.

          I would be thrilled to have one of you contact me in the future to tell me that you actually did something to work towards a solution…beyond claiming concern…and blaming tools for man\’s inhumanity to man. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to present this… There are agencies all over the US who are looking for volunteers…

          Tracking firearm movements – A complicated issue – and one that doesn\’t appear to be cost effective. If you have a crime gun, and can track it back to previous owners/sellers… that is exactly the information you have. Not when it was used, who used it in the commission f a crime…so little or no value to that information.

          You have to realize that Wisconsin just came out of the dark ages on concealed carry, and is still a little backward.. If what you say is true, it is the only state I know of where law enforcement does not have full access to CHP holders. Here is Alaska, AST runs the program, and you can bet they know who the CHP holders are – I\’ve been gone from WI for a while so I don\’t know how that program works.

          and in answer to how we make it safer… read what I said above. I\’m a real believer in education, and in \”fixing\” the mental health issues. That won\’t solve it all, because alcohol, thugs too lazy to work, etc. will still exist…

          And yes, I did 30 years in law enforcement, and could tell you stories that would make your skin crawl and worse…. You folks are lucky – you don\’t know the half of it.

             0 likes

  • Cat Kin

    You might want to get rid of Penthouse or Maxem, but I\’d recommend keeping Esquire. Just sayin\’.

       0 likes

  • Smokey

    I was asked for specific solutions to the problem, so here\’s a couple:

    1. Education of the masses, on everything from firearm handling, safety,and responsibility. It amazes me that MADD concentrates on drivers instead of their deadly tools(cars), and the anti gun folks focus on the tools(guns) and not the \”drivers\”. It also amazes me that anti-anything folks think that the solution to problems is to scare the hell out of everyone…be it the president with obamacare or congress with social security as happens when a terrible incident such as the CN. shootings, and everybody piles on the NRA, a bunch of talking heads on TV go on and on and on night after night and report nothing that is news – but tons of propaganda – this after misreporting what is going on for several days before coming anywhere near the truth. Is this helping fix the problem ? I don\’t think so.

    2. Mental health awareness and helping those folks. Some years ago there was a big push to get people out of mental institutions of all kinds and get them back out on the street – where they have a right to be… Worked about as good as the no child left behind… do a little research if you are serious about being part of the solution instead of part of the problem. Loading some people up with medications can help some of them function pretty well, but the problem is that if they aren\’t supervised – and out on the street they are not – all of the medication in the world is not going to help them if they don\’t take it… Instead of looking at a person with mental problems with distaste, and agreeing that they are someone else\’s problem to deal with (the county, state, feds), it\’s time to take some personal ownership in the problem.

    3. I\’ve worked in public service with issues number 1 and 2 all my adult life, and I\’m now 72 years old. I can tell the readers of this blog that there is a 99.99999999999999999999999999999999 % chance that the only value to what I have written was the exercise therapy for my arthritic fingers. In all those years myself and others have received the same questions, provided the same answers, and other that the work we have personally done have seen no change. I\’m not patting myself on the back, nor am I looking for praise. All I\’m saying is that all of the speeches to community and church groups over the years who \”wanted to help\” yet did no follow up to actually do anything…did nothing but make them feel better for having a meeting to address the problem…and totally wasted the time of the law enforcement and mental health folks who took the time to make the presentation.

    I would be thrilled to have one of you contact me in the future to tell me that you actually did something to work towards a solution…beyond claiming concern…and blaming tools for man\’s inhumanity to man. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to present this… There are agencies all over the US who are looking for volunteers…

       1 likes

    • Rich

      You posted this just as I posted my previous reply. I\’ll make just one note for now, and that is that the false equivalency to automobiles needs to stop and stop now. The automobile industry is one of the most heavily regulated industries in this country. Automakers can, and are, held liable when their product is defective in design and manufacturing. Drivers must be licensed, insured, and are held accountable when they do not operate their vehicles in a safe manner. (We can debate the effectiveness of traffic law at another time.) As a result of this regulation, the loss of life per passenger mile traveled in automobiles is at historic lows.

      Motor vehicle operators are required to carry personal and property liability insurance (in most states) to cover losses incurred by victims of their bad habits. Are there scofflaws? Are there folks that routinely run traffic lights? Sure. But they are few in number, just as are those who will break gun laws when they come to pass.

      But in all of this apples to oranges nonsense, remember this: between automobiles and firearms, only one was created and designed with the singular purpose of killing things, and automobiles are not.

         0 likes

      • Smokey

        Power saws weren\’t designed to cut peoples fingers of either, but it happens. Design of the tool is not an issue.

        You miss the point… don\’t let it rattle you… The point is that no matter what a tool is designed for, it can be misused… and the misuse is done by a person, who by design has free will..

        Your regulation argument is silly – regulations can only go so far in controlling human behavior… check and see how many pounds of laws exist regulation guns… and there isn\’t enough enforcement in the world to make them all work, and more than eliminating drunk drivers, suicide victims, etc.

        You need to be careful promoting car safety by passenger miles…. They can\’t hold a candle to the millions and millions of safe gun owner miles….

           0 likes

        • Rich

          Now you just make me laugh. Power saws? Oh yeah, they passed a law about that. Requiring a guard that automatically stopped the saw on contact with skin. Seriously.

          Sir, stop deflecting and start addressing how me can make firearms and firearm ownership safer. If you are a gun owner, you have skin in the game. You can either be a part of the solution, or just sit on the sideline, but status quo is no longer acceptable.

          We can start by closing the gun show loophole. We can continue by reinstating the penalties levied on dealers guilty of fraud back to felonies instead of misdemeanors. We can require gun owners to carry liability insurance. We can require better safety mechanisms on guns themselves. We can require better training. We can require better licensing. We can require more secure storage.

          Notice I haven\’t said anything about banning anything. And sure, it will cost money. Ever consider how much money the gun culture costs us now?

             2 likes

          • Smokey

            I don’t know who died and left you in charge, but it was a bad choice. You are not in any position to demand anything, any more than I am… Make an effort to be civil…works every time. Power tool was an example – apparently something that totally escaped you.

            Interesting thing this so called “Gun show loophole.” With nothing done over the many years to change the rules for gun shows, I guess most people don’t see it as a big issue. That being said, I guess congress is going to give Eric Holder a pass on “Guns walking”, so that apparently isn’t a big issue either – although I thought it was. You suggest penalties for dealers but none for the Dept. of Justice ?

            Gun owners and liability… Hmmmm… Honest gun owners for the most part have liability insurance – it’s the bad guys that don’t, and never will unless you guys pass obamaguncare… Why would anyone who steals their guns have liability insurance – which I’m thinking would be very hard to steal. Right ?

            Better safety mechanisms – another great idea. This would be, I’m guessing, to keep gun thieves from hurting themselves while learning how to operate the gun ? That suggestion of yours makes no sense at all… not that that makes it an exception.

            “We”.(I know this is painful but the NRA is a big part of we) … offer extensive firearm safety instruction and hunter education all across the US of A.. More could be required, but again the bad guys aren’t interested. I have been teaching firearm safety and hunter education for over 50 years – and to the best of my knowledge, non of the people in my classes were “the bad guys”. Think about it.

            What do you plan to license, and how are you going to get the bad guys to buy one…Is this another tax ?

            We advocate secure storage – give away free gun locks, etc…. but I don’t know how you would enforce secure storage any more than you can enforce any of your other ideas.. Unless you want to do away with the US Constitution… and some days it appears there is an effort afoot to do that.

            I have enjoyed your “We can do it” fixit points..I do every time I see them, but they are getting a little old, and having been shown to be useless, I’m thinking it’s time for you guys to come up with something new. So, stop deflecting and start addressing how me can make firearms and firearm ownership safer – in the hands of the bad guys….we’ve already pretty much done that for the good guys.

            Have a great day, say I, as I slide my favorite insurance tool into it’s holster and head out to the coffee shop, firm in the conviction that I’m safer now than when I wore a uniform and badge… The bad guys now don’t know who us good guys are.

               0 likes

  • Gareth

    Hey Smoke-Blower, I didn\’t call you a gun fetishist, but if you want wear the hat, go ahead. Many members of my family have served in the armed forces and have experienced things far worse than you can ever imagine. You\’ve been typing all day and still haven\’t said one thing that isn\’t an old tired cliche. This country is going to change and you\’ll just have to get used to it.

       1 likes

    • Smokey

      You inferred it… same thing in my book.

      I won’t fall back on family members… I myself served in the military… and many years in law enforcement, and as a firefighter… so don’t play yours is bigger than mine – that’s a little kids ploy…doesn’t work there either.

      I’ve been waiting for 4 years for “Hope and Change”…good luck with that…..

         0 likes

      • John Casper

        Smokey, thank you for your service.

        Glad you’re a liberal. “I’ve been waiting for 4 years for “Hope and Change”…good luck with that….. ,” that’s what everyone at Firedoglake says about Obama and the Dems.

        In what branch of the military did you serve? When?

        Where in law enforcement and as a firefighter did you serve? When?

           0 likes

        • Smokey

          Me liberal ? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha…
          I guess I’m probably as conservative as is possible… and yes, I am still waiting for all those promises to come true. I did my best to give the Dems the benefit of the doubt – what a wasted 4 years… and now 4 more…..

          I was in the Army in the early 60’s.

          Law enf. WI, TX, VA, MN, started in 1967, retired in 1993

          Fire WI, AK Start 1958 and still involved

             0 likes

          • John Casper

            Smokey, according to Mitt, you’re a “taker,” not a “maker.” Based on what you wrote it sounds like you’re in Mitt’s 47%. You’ve never worked in the private sector and your “too big,” pension comes from FDR and all those liberal Dems who believed unions, the Armed Forces, and law enforcement ought to get a living wage and retirement.

            Obama can’t wait to “chain the CPI,” (Consumer Price Index) of your Army retirement check and your Social Security check. That would have meant your retirement checks would no longer rise with inflation. Obama tried to “chain the CPI,” at this “fiscal cliff,” but those “liberal Democrats,” blocked it. We’ve got another fiscal cliff in 60 days, so Barack and the GOP has another shot.

            Sarcasm

            So keep fighting those liberal Democrats who are the only thing protecting your retirement from inflation.

            /sarcasm.

               0 likes

            • Smokey

              I worked in the private sector long enough to have paid in the 40 quarters required to earn full SS benefits, which I lost because congress said anyone retiring from the Govt. didn’t need the money… so I get $200 a month instead of what I earned… Ye…I’m really liking that.

              I don’t get an Army retirement check, see above the deal with SS, and my retirement checks have not been raising … Hmmmm what’s wrong with that picture… Kinda a waste of your sarcasm :-)

              BTW, I’ve never voted for a party in my life – fiercely independent I am, and please don’t tell me how my vote has been wasted by being independent…

                 0 likes

  • Limiting the capacity of gun magazines makes as much sense and limiting the size of the Pepsi you buy at McDonalds in NYC. All it accomplishes is giving useless politicians a false victory.

       1 likes

  • Robert Almy

    Professors James Wright and Peter Rossi from the University of Massachusetts performed what is considered the most complete empirical study on the relationship between guns and crime under a three-year grant from the United States Department of Justice. After surveying all of the studies and criminological data that had been developed, their conclusions were as follows:

    “There appears to be no strong causal connections between private gun ownership and the crime rate…. There is no compelling evidence that private weaponry is an important cause of … violent criminality. It is commonly hypothesized that much criminal violence, especially homicide, occurs simply because the means of lethal violence (firearms) are readily at hand, and thus, that much homicide would not occur were firearms generally less available. There is no persuasive evidence that supports this view.”

    See, See James D. Wright & Peter Rossi, U.S. Dep’t of Justice, Weapons, Crime and Violence in America.

    Furthermore, there are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU’s) per year by law abiding citizens. This was one of the findings in a national survey conducted by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist in 1993. Prior to Dr. Kleck’s survey, thirteen other surveys indicated a range of between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU’s annually. Subsequent to Kleck’s study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms. This survey estimated 1.5 million DGU’s annually and is available at https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

    “The Hill” reports that: Strict gun control does not reduce crime because it does not keep weapons out of the hands of criminals. There is abundant evidence that our cities are safer with guns. See, http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/crime/76395-gun-control. Criminologists and criminal law scholars agree that gun possession id a deterrent to crime. See, e.g., Don B. Kates, Jr., The Value of Civilian Arms Possession as a Deterrent to Crime or Defense Against Crime, 18 Am. J. Crim. L. 113, 164 (1991)and Hans Toch & Alan J. Lizotte, Research and Policy: The Case of Gun Control, in Psych. and Soc. Pol’y 223 (Peter Suedfeld & Philip E. Tetlock eds., (1992)

       0 likes

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