As I read through accounts of the racist, anti-government Las Vegas couple who shot to death two police officers, a civilian and themselves, I came across this (emphasis added):

Barging through the front door, Jerad Miller fired off one round, announced “a revolution” and told everyone to leave, while his wife hung back, putting their bags in a store cart.

“They just said, ‘The revolution’s begun,’ they said that they shot some officers, and basically get out of the store if you don’t want to get hurt,” said Tyrone Ellis, who works at the store.

Standing near the registers was Joseph Robert Wilcox, 31, of Las Vegas, who happened to have a concealed weapon and decided to intervene “immediately and heroically,” McMahill said.

But Wilcox didn’t realize Amanda Miller, now inside the store, was with the armed man and he walked right by her on his way to end the attack. As he passed her, she pulled out a gun and shot him in the ribs, killing him.

One of the most common talking points I’ve seen and heard from conservatives who support concealed carry laws is that allowing citizens to “pack heat” will serve as both a deterrent and a means for citizens to “fight crime” on their own, but it seems pretty clear that wasn’t the case in Las Vegas.

While many conservatives (fueled no doubt by the radical National Rifle Association) seem to feel we need to arm the citizenry with more guns, it would certainly seem to me that’s not the solution, given how the number of mass shootings that have plagued our nation.

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42 Responses to If citizens carrying guns help prevent crime, what happened in Las Vegas?

  1. independent guy says:

    The good guys stopped the bad guys.
    Unfortunately the bad guys ambushed and killed 3 innocent individuals first.
    Rest in peace Igor Soldo, Alyn Beck and Joseph Wilcox.

    • John Casper says:

      ig,

      The bad guys, oligarchs and Wall Street won again. The “austerity” they’re inflicting is causing “social destruction.”

      Right and left agree on prosecuting Wall Street CEO’, legalizing pot, and ending the foreign occupations. The reason we can’t make any progress on those three is because the oligarchs control the media. They keep right and left distracted so we can’t even unify on issues upon which there’s substantial agreement.

      Wall Street’s on numerous kinds of federal welfare.

      Big Pharma will lose a lot of revenue when pot’s legalized.

      The Military Industrial Complex and Nat/Sec makes money off of war.

      My guess is that both Wilcox and Miller had plenty of warning signs in their background that they could not be trusted with a hunting license. If we had robust universal coverage, something like this, http://moslereconomics.com/2009/03/02/mosler-health-care-proposal/ , they could have gotten help. Once you figure out that “(Federal) Taxes For Revenue Are Obsolete” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/warren-mosler/taxes-for-revenue-are-obs_b_542134.html we can bring back the FULL holiday on the federal payroll tax. We can slash federal income taxes on the 99% and on ALL corporations. The real “job creators” are consumers with money to spend.

      Federal government could also invest in a job guarantee

      “…The government could serve as the “employer of last resort” under a job guarantee program modeled on the WPA (the Works Progress Administration, in existence from 1935 to 1943 after being renamed the Work Projects Administration in 1939) and the CCC (Civilian Conservation Corps, 1933-1942). The program would offer a job to any American who was ready and willing to work at the federal minimum wage, plus legislated benefits. No time limits. No means testing. No minimum education or skill requirements….”

      http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2013/07/a-plan-for-all-the-detroits-out-there.html

      • MrApple says:

        I hope you misspoke when you stated “My guess is that both Wilcox and Miller had plenty of warning signs in their background that they could not be trusted with a hunting license.” The Millers were the nut-job shooters while Wilcox was the concealed carrier who tried to stop them and paid for it with his life.

    • The good guys stopped the bad guys? The bad guys took themselves out.

      • Eric Collins says:

        As soon as they met resistance from a good guy with a gun, they killed themselves. That’s the M.O. of these monsters.

      • DR1776 says:

        Negative Ghostrider. The good guys stopped the bad guys, just as it was stated the first time. Good will always prevail. The sheep should tuck tail an run, and leave the fight to the big boys.

  2. Arch Stanton says:

    No one…not even the NRA or any other pro-gun organization…..ever promised that just because being allowed to carry a gun will result in a successful outcome. The point being, that being armed gives one a better chance to stop a deadly attack, rather than curling up into a fetal position begging for your life. This was a different scenario than Mr Wilcox probably ever imagined that he would be in. He cannot be faulted for not seeing that the woman was a threat (She did not have her gun out at the moment). Nor can any and all training, at whatever level from low to high, result in a surviveable outcome. Gunfight are fluid; things change rapidly. The contention that good guys with guns will stop the bad guys is still relevent.

  3. Joe says:

    “If citizens carrying guns help prevent crime, what happened in Las Vegas?”

    All three men who died in Vegas were good honorable citizens doing what they thought best to help their fellow Americans.
    Officers Igor Soldo and Alyn Beck chose to take on the arduous and rarely fulfilling career of being Police.
    Mr. Joseph Wilcox saw a deadly threat to himself and those around him and attempted to intervene.

    Unfortunately due to the nature of sneak attacks all of their firearms were useless that day.
    All three men chose to put themselves in harms way for the benefit of the public and your attempt to use Mr. Wilcox for political gain is pathetic.

    May I suggest an alternate, if equally insensitive though true, headline?

    If Police carrying guns help prevent crime, what happened in Las Vegas?

    Maybe for your next article you could speak to us about the insane amount of homicides taking place in Chicago where until just recently only the police and criminals had the guns.

  4. Allan says:

    “If citizens carrying guns help prevent crime, what happened in Las Vegas?”

    Note to liberals, the good guy doesn’t always win, no more than cops thwart crime every time. It’s a fact of life in the real world.

  5. MrApple says:

    So this author’s aim is to smear the unlucky concealed carry citizen who instead of running took a chance at ending a horrible situation and paid for it with his life. It would seem that Mr. Wisniewski is pro-crime in his desire for us all to cower in the corner and wait for the Authorities to solve our problems for us.

    • No, the point of my post was to note that concealed carry certainly didn’t resolve the situation; in fact all it did was create another victim.

      And no, I’m not pro-crime, but I understand that it’s convenient for some (like yourself) to think of anyone who believes in gun control in such black and white terms.

      • MrApple says:

        Mr. Wilcox legally carrying concealed did not “create another victim” the woman who shot him while he was trying to stop the male shooter did. And as for seeing gun control in black and white terms, you’re right it is a black or white issue. You either realize that laws are obeyed by the law abiding and not the criminals, that “Gun Free Zones” are simply disarmed victim zones, that your personal safety is your responsibility and that the Authorities have no legal obligation to protect you, and that a firearm in the hands of determined “good guy” is the greatest deterrent to employ in stopping a “bad guy” or you don’t. It truly is a black or white issue.

        • John Casper says:

          Hey SteveJobs aka MrApple,

          if Mr. Wilcox’s actions did not “create another victim,” than why was he the ONLY other “victim?”

          • MrApple says:

            And where were you Mr. Casper during the shooting? What would you have done? The man took a chance and it didn’t work out for him. But he is not a victim of concealed carry instead he is a victim of a nut-job with a gun.

            • John Casper says:

              MrApple, I doubt anyone in the Target knew that the two nut cases waving guns and shouting stuff had just ambushed two police officers.

              • MrApple says:

                I pretty sure the crowd running from Walmart, not a Target, had no idea of the previous shooting of the Policemen.

  6. John Casper says:

    With cowardly friends who hide behind phony handles, the Second Amendment doesn’t need any enemies.

    The quickest way to repeal the Second is to insure that folks like Jerad and Amanda Miller aren’t allowed anywhere near a firearm. That includes a hunting license.

    If Mr. Wilcox hadn’t been killed by Miller, someone else with C&C could have mistaken him for a perp.

    There’s a reason law enforcement wear UNIFORMS.

    It’t the LIBERAL awarding of C&C permits that plants doubt in law enforcement’s mind in deadly-force situations. First responders to the Las Vegas Target would have known that they were facing multiple armed suspects who had just ambushed police officers eating lunch. It’s doubtful that they would rely on early reports that there were only two.

    MrApple, Allan, Joe, Arch and DR, are BFF of all those who want to repeal the Second.

    “I Was The NRA”

    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/25/i-was-the-nra/

    • John Casper says:

      Meant to write: “The quickest way to repeal the Second is to insure that folks like Jerad and Amanda Miller ARE allowed anywhere near firearms.

    • MrApple says:

      “With cowardly friends who hide behind phony handles, the Second Amendment doesn’t need any enemies.”
      I can’t speak for others but my name is Mr. Apple, so is my Father’s, my brother’s and so will my son’s be when he gets older.
      “There’s a reason law enforcement wear UNIFORMS.”
      Are you saying that plain clothes or undercover Police are just as likely to be killed because they lack Casper approved attire?
      “It’t the LIBERAL awarding of C&C permits that plants doubt in law enforcement’s mind in deadly-force situations.”
      Just a few things, do you have a Concealed Carry Permit Mr. Casper? If not then let me inform you of how LIBERALLY I was awarded my permit. I complete the state order concealed carry class, I shot and qualified to complete the shooting requirement, I filled out the proper paperwork (fill it out wrong and you’ve committed a felony), I submitted myself to a city, county, state, and ATF background check, waited 90 days for all that to process and then was LIBERALLY awarded a flimsy paper permit that is good for 5 years. I went to Staples and had them laminate it so that it would actually hold up for the 5 years.

      • John Casper says:

        MrApple you wrote: “With cowardly friends who hide behind phony handles, the Second Amendment doesn’t need any enemies.”
        I can’t speak for others but my name is Mr. Apple, so is my Father’s, my brother’s and so will my son’s be when he gets older.”

        LMAO

        You wrote: “Are you saying that plain clothes or undercover Police are just as likely to be killed because they lack Casper approved attire?”

        Of course not.

        If you knew anything about policing, you’d understand that it’s a “force.” There’s a reason they operate out of precincts. They KNOW each other. Frequently, under covers are required to wear certain colors.” Discharging their weapon around civilians without an established perimeter, without being able to adequately identify the background is a law enforcement nightmare.

        If you were a conservative, you’d know what posse comitatus was, why conservatives value LOCAL law enforcement. When you let federal law enforcement, in most cases you get serious problems.

        You wrote: “Just a few things, do you have a Concealed Carry Permit Mr. Casper?”

        Why do you think you need to know?

        You wrote: “If not then let me inform you of how LIBERALLY I was awarded my permit. I complete the state order concealed carry class, I shot and qualified to complete the shooting requirement, I filled out the proper paperwork (fill it out wrong and you’ve committed a felony), I submitted myself to a city, county, state, and ATF background check, waited 90 days for all that to process and then was LIBERALLY awarded a flimsy paper permit that is good for 5 years. I went to Staples and had them laminate it so that it would actually hold up for the 5 years.”

        Thanks for so effectively making my point. You could have done all that from your wheel-chair. If you had any experience with firearms you’d know how important it was to routinely clean them. I take it you don’t have a hunting license.

        As you and Mr. Wilcox confirm, LIBERAL C&C permitting creates the illusion that you now have “tactical,” experience in the use of lethal force. When your only experience discharging a weapon is at a target or an animal, you’re completely untrained and unfit for a “tactical” assignment that may include the use of lethal force.

        • MrApple says:

          “Thanks for so effectively making my point. You could have done all that from your wheel-chair. If you had any experience with firearms you’d know how important it was to routinely clean them. I take it you don’t have a hunting license.”
          I am not sure why you seem to be belittling people with disabilities. Do they not deserve the right to self-defense. And if you must know I have a Lifetime Comprehensive License for Hunting and Fishing in my state. I’m not quite sure how a hunting license is in anyway connected to a Concealed Carry Permit. You’ve stumped me there. And I never claimed to be “tactical”. I look like the average guy, nothing special, nothing that stands out. You seem to have it in your head that people who conceal carry are itching to actually shoot someone. That simply could not possibly be farther from the truth.

          • John Casper says:

            Link to your website so we can all get a good look at a photo of who you claim you are. Show us a photo of your C&C permit, and ALL the weapons and ammo you own. Same with the Lifetime Comprehensive License for Hunting and Fishing, want to see a photo of that.

            Targets and animals don’t shoot back.

            Target, Walmart, Costco,…. it’s all the same “free-trade,” union-busting, but thanks for the correction. Target was wrong. It was a Walmart.

            “Shrimp slaves: Walmart, Costco act against forced labor”

            http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2014/06/10/costco-walmart-slave-labor/10274641/

            • MrApple says:

              Throw all my personal information for the world to see and use? No thank you. Believe me or not that’s up to you.

              • John Casper says:

                Oh no, block out all the personal info (except for the state). I just want to see how fast the PR firm you work for can find a photo, a copy of the “flimsy,” C&C permit, all the paper work you claim to have filled out “for city, county, and state,” a copy of the receipt from Staples for laminating, and this Lifetime Comprehensive License for Hunting and Fishing.

                The clock is ticking, the longer it take you to link to these photos, the more obvious it is you made all this stuff up. Love the “regular guy,” part. What about gay/bisexual guy? What about a woman? What about a woman of color? How “regular,” do you want to be?

                Pro tip: when you’re in a hole, stop digging.

                • MrApple says:

                  Mr. Casper I’m not sure what your deal is. You seem to think that I am a plant for some lobbying group. Please feel free to look up in the comment sections of WND, The Daily Caller, Breitbart, and Twitchy and search for a MrApple because that is me and those are my unpaid words. What else do you need to know to build upon your fantasy of me. I’m a White guy, not super handsome just regular. I’m married and have been for quite a while. I have children. I’m a hetersexual, conservative, christian, college educated (BA and MA), concealed carrying, gun owning American citizen.
                  So when do we get your bio?

                  • John Casper says:

                    MrApple,

                    “…I’m a White guy,…”

                    Prove it.

                    Put part of “you” next to all the other crap you claimed.

                    W/R/T my “biography,” I’m not the one making up stuff that you think will help you fit in. You’ll volunteered all this stuff. Evidently, you and the PR folks behind you are too incompetent to even try to fabricate it. NRA’s getting a lousy ROI on whatever they’re paying you.

                    Now I’m guessing you’re somewhere in East Africa, blogging in English for ten cents an hour.

                    If you’re a conservative, you’re really gonna like “The Case For Reparations,” http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-reparations/361631/
                    Na-Tehisi Coates is just applying John Locke. There’s a reason they’re not called the TEN Suggestions.

                    What’s your BA in ?

                    What school issued the degree?

                    What’s your MA in?

                    What school issued the degree?

                    Are you unemployed, or does your employer know you steal from him/her during the workday to read and respond to so many different political blogs? If you’re unemployed, why aren’t you out looking for a job?

                    • MrApple says:

                      Now you have said all this about me, where is your bio? Or are you too much of a coward to do what you ask others to do?

                    • John Casper says:

                      Awwww, MrApple, ain’t we pals no more?

                    • MrApple says:

                      Still waiting on your bio.

                    • John Casper says:

                      MrApple,

                      Keep waiting.

                      If you and the PR firm you work for were remotely conservative, you’d understand the term, “fair game.”

                    • MrApple says:

                      Waiting…

                    • John Casper says:

                      Mr. Apple, but of course you are.

                      You were so anxious to tell us all about “you,” but now like every phony damsel in distress, http://fineartamerica.com/art/all/damsel+in+distress/all

                      you want to be rescued from your own public relations incompetence.

                      From the link, please pick which “damsel in distress,” is most, “you,” waiting to be rescued. If you can’t pick just one, that’s fine and very understandable. Pick out your top five,….

                    • MrApple says:

                      You keep dodging the question. Where is your bio? You’re so clever that you think that you found me out. And yet I’m nothing more than I have already said I was.
                      Are you one of these John Caspers?
                      http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dir/John/Casper

                      Or one of these?
                      http://names.whitepages.com/John/Casper

                      Or this one?
                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Casper

                      Who is the real John Casper?

                    • John Casper says:

                      No MrApple, I didn’t VOLUNTEER all kinds of PHONY information about myself.

                      #fairgame

                    • MrApple says:

                      Well then stand up and be counted. Now’s your turn.

                    • John Casper says:

                      MrApple, any John Casper in those links can now point to your 5:59 as “probable cause” for anything bad that happens to them or their families.

                      You guys are geniuses.

                    • MrApple says:

                      Being that I Googled “John Casper” and those were just a few of the pages that popped up I think I am thoroughly safe from legal action. Unless Google is a secret and only on select computers. Is mine one of the chosen few?

                      Still waiting on you to put up or shut up.

                    • John Casper says:

                      MrApple, what would Google have to do with it?

                      You think they’re the only search engine?

                      Whatever machine you’re using is tied to a unique IP address. Zach’s servers have your IP address.

                    • MrApple says:

                      “Zach’s servers have your IP address.”
                      So? I am exactly who I said I was. And yet still nothing from you. I starting to believe that even you don’t believe in you.

                    • John Casper says:

                      Since you clearly don’t know anything about IP addresses, it’s a number. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_address

                      It’s not about me, it’s about a name that your IP address searched on. Your IP address is tied to those searches. How many people do you think searched on that name today? I’ll be you were the only one.

                      Then YOU via your unique IP address inserted YOUR searches via links into this blog.

                      Given the make-up of this blog, the most recent comments are published on the right side and that pushes down earlier comments.

                      I’m sorry you claim to be a conservative, but reject all manner of “individual responsibility.” There’s a reason the TEN Commandments aren’t called the TEN Suggestions.

                    • MrApple says:

                      John Casper, I don’t believe that you really exist. You claim to know everything there is to know about computers and the internet. You claim that I have now doomed hundreds of people. Information that was freely available and still is free available. I have been nothing but honest and you don’t, or aren’t programed to, believe me. People like you, or computers like you, seem bound and determined to just troll and troll you have.

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