In case you’ve been living under a rock or really really not paying attention, there was a little get-together yesterday at the Capitol in Madison, where somewhere between ten and twenty thousand hardworking middle class Wisconsinites peacefully assembled to protest Gov. Scott Walker’s proposed budget “repair” bill, a bill that purports to balance the state’s current budget deficit while taking away virtually all collective bargaining rights from public employee unions in the process. Most encouraging about yesterday’s rally was the solidarity shown to public employees by unions representing private sector workers. Among the private-sector unions I observed were the Teamsters, the United Food and Commercial Workers International Union (UFCW), and the United Steelworkers Union (USW).
While Gov. Walker has called his proposal to weaken public employee unions “modest,” many would vehemently disagree with that characterization, including the hundreds of protesters who vowed to spend the night in the Capitol building until the budget “repair” bill was resolved one way or another.
In addition to the tens of thousands of citizens who gathered at the Capitol, approximately 1,000 protesters gathered outside Gov. Walker’s home on N. 68th St. in Wauwatosa to protest Walker’s proposed state budget “repair” bill.
Students have also taken up the cause of Wisconsin’s public employees, with 700 Madison East High School students walked out of their classes and marched nearly three miles to the Capitol building to show support for public sector workers, and students at Viroqua High School walked out of class and congregated on school grounds, then marched around school property voicing their opinion against the proposed budget. The students then moved their rally to the Vernon County Courthouse, where a speech summarizing the students’ view on the budget was read.
Today the protests continue, as public employees and their supporters will gather at the Capitol, and teachers in the Madison school district are planning a district-wide absence to protest against Republican Gov. Scott Walker’s proposal to take away collective bargaining rights.
If you’d like to keep abreast of what’s going on across Wisconsin, you can follow along HERE and HERE.
I have to say one thing about Wisconsin?
There are simply two things we don’t take sitting down regardless of side- the infringement of our rights whether they be conservative or liberal, and someone being the way of our next beer.
People of Wisconsin it’s time to fight back. If any teacher is found to have called in sick today and then is spotted at a rally or protest anywhere in the state it is up to you to DEMAND that this person be fired NOW! Teachers are putting their greed over the education of your children and we must not allow this to happen. I am currently working with several parents groups in the Green Bay area to find out how many teachers are not in their classroom today. The names of these teachers will be posted at a website to be announced and we will also be sending this list to the school board demanding accountability of these teachers. BAND TOGETHER WISCONSIN do not let these greedy union crybabies destroy your education system. WEAC must go!
But dare I ask you this: Who will teach the children if these teachers are all removed? Should their rights as people be put on the line? Have you not ever figured out with all this cutting back to begin with this is why the teachers want to continue to keep their unions and bargaining rights?
Would you sacrifice those teachers and put the burden on many more so you could do your partisan tactics? Will you infringe the rights of individuals so that they have no voice?
This isn’t a case of greedy union crybabies — this is a case of them needing a voice and keeping it. They will be willing to make cuts, but to gut them like this is going to punish us all in the end. Although you may never feel it.
We don’t have enough teachers as it is to students – would you be willing to fire all those protesting?
And where will these teachers go if they all are fired……there is a large number of unemployed teachers out there who would be more then willing to take their spots. They really better think about what they are doing. If one ore 100 loss their jobs because of their activities I would not feel one bit sorry, and I have two teachers in my family one very involved in the union in her district.
Minnesota and Illinois. 🙂
Is there a teacher shortage in those states?
There is a teacher shortage in Chicago and Minneapolis, the major metropolitan areas. They’ll open their arms for this, many cities would from all over the United States.
The reason why Milwaukee sucks in school, it’s not the teaching itself. It’s the ratio of students to teachers. And teachers need to live too as well as pay for their own supplies. And now, while I was lucky to go to a wonderful public school that was very concise it also didn’t have crowded classes.
It’s simple logic, removing bargaining rights will mean that classes can get ridiculously huge as much as 50 to 60 students in one room. You can bet that a lot of teachers would be willing to go there.
Are thos jobs in the burbs of in Chicago. Yeah I could just see a teacher from Antigo quitting her nice small town school job to go work at a grade school near south side Chicago, T you really live in a world that is not fully connected to reality sometimes.
Also: there is another wonderful job my friend —
The rural of the state. SHOCKING, I know there’s some world out there outside of Chicago! And they are terribly underfunded and would love new teachers. 🙂
You were the one that said Chicago, not me. Also if they are terribly underfunded how are they going to pay for NEW teachers? Is that why there is this shortage you keep saying because they cannot afford to add teachers. Sounds like your little utopia is crumbeling pretty fast.
And you’re the genius to assume it was Antigo and not Milwaukee. This is why I mentioned gasp – the two cities together! Amazing! It seems you can’t connect the dots very well.
Oh trust me, they’ll see the flouncing of Wisconsin and they’ll take advantage of it if it means their success. Just look at the casual threat of what happened with the Green Energy with Illinois and Minnesota.
First of all, just to be clear, I absolutely do not believe in firing all or many teachers. The truth is, the vast majority of them are very good at their job. The fact that we cannot fire the awful ones is, however a problem. We don’t have rubber rooms here, but only because instead, we actually allow those really bad ones to continue in the classrooms.
I love the teachers at my kids school. They are outstanding. It has more to do with a really tremendous district administrator, small town sensibilities and great work ethic. I believe their school is one of the best in the state – especially in terms of the quality of the education and measurable results (including the evil standardized testing scores) while still being as frugal – good stewards of the public funds. I believe exactly none of the things that make their school great are a result of the teachers union or the state or federal government.
Finally – Everyone thinks they should be getting more. It’s a universal human condition. But for comparison, find someone who spent time teaching in another state before coming here. I know a handful of people who started teaching in Arizona (both rural and Phoenix & burbs) as well as Las Vegas and have come to (or come back to) Wisconsin within the last 5 or so years. Know what they say? Almost all of them have said they can’t believe how good they have it here – that the pay is better, but that the benefits are just far an away beyond what they were getting. Personally, I like the fact that we treat teachers well. They deserve it. But when I hear the sob stories about how any cuts at all will be the end of the world – the end of education as we know it…well it just doesn’t sit well.
It is absolutely NOT impossible to fire “bad” teachers, there is a just a specific process that you have to follow.
Not impossible – but for all practical purposes as close to it as you get. My brother is a Assistant Principal in a Wisconsin school district (after 7 or 8 years teaching). It wouldn’t be appropriate to get into specifics, so choose to believe me or not. He’s said that the tough family situations, teen pregnancies, fights and that sort of thing are all a treat compared to dealing the mess of a bad teacher. The “specific process” required to build a paper trail a mile long for what should be first time, fire-able offenses is the worst part of his job. Things like incompetence and a complete disregard for the students are generally not actionable.
I personally would be much more open to making it easier to fire “bad teachers” if we had a clear definition of a bad teacher. We need to make sure a bad teacher is not one who gave a bad grade to a school board members kid, or one who flunked the star athelete, etc…
The last thing we need is more arbitrary unenforcable rules. Peer review by a panel trained in review and constructive criticism…who observe teachers in the classroom…the abuses you are outlining can’t happen in this situation…adminstrators can’t be the sole arbiters of good/bad. And believe me, most teachers know what bad teaching is and they know who the bad teachers are. And let the local school boards run their schools for crying out loud…if they are doing their jobs and listening to parents, listening to teachers, working with their superintendent, and keeping up with the trends…they can make their schools exactly what they need to be. Hands off Gov!
More good stuff. I’m not with you all the way on peer review, however. Certainly it could be a useful tool. But if that’s how things work, then lets just fire all of the principals & administrators.
We hire administrators to do a job. They’re paid quite a bit more than the teachers and most spent time teaching before filling out their work experience and curriculum & instruction, administration and related advanced degree work. Though they certainly need oversight as well, why should they not have fairly wide discretion with regard to managing the staff?
A chain of command has worked for thousands of years in the military and in the business world. Why should an a third party who is largely unanswerable – certainly unanswerable to the people paying the salaries – have so much (any) influence over how the staff is manged and developed?
I can only speak for MPS because obviously that’s what I have been paying attention to the past 4 months…but staff cuts have been so severe across MPS that principals spend more time hiring contractors to do maintenance, order office supplies, etc…that their time spent on academic instrustion or teacher mentoring has dropped off considerably.
One of the reasons teachers prefer peer reviews…and the review team would work across the system not just within one school…is the criteria for grading teacher performance would be more consistent…and not as likely to be affected by principal bias or distractions or how someone is feeling that one day or his/her ability to perform a valid review. And it also provides for additional opportunities for mentoring and support…
I am not suggesting that the principal be without a voice but some things need a broader scope.
I am not totally sold on how it would/could work but I am sold on working with the teachers and listening to what they think needs to be done. They are the people in the classrooms. They know what works. They know who the bad eggs are. And as you’ve stated elsewhere in this thread, they are sincerely interested in the success of our students.
I understand that MPS features heavily in your perspective and where you have the most experience. And I certainly respect the heck out of your efforts to get involved to improve MPS yourself.
That said, with all due respect, MPS is on another planet. The issues there largely unique to MPS and not at all universal or reflective of the state of education in the rest of the state. MPS spends almost 35% more per student than my district so it’s hard to sympathize too much with the cuts they’ve had to face.
See now that goes triplicate for the administrators vs. the union. The principals & assistant principals are the ones in the schools, in the classrooms, spending time with their teachers and their kids. Not the union. Not Mary Bell.
When I’ve talked about firing bad teachers to my brother, his first response is always that there needs to be more support provided to help them address the problems they’re having. If they can’t/won’t improve, then they need to part ways. They want teachers to succeed more than anyone. But their hands are just as tied on the positive, support side as they are on the disciplinary side. Hold an after school session to help dealing with X type of problems? Maybe, but don’t require it or do anything to remotely imply it’s anything other than completely optional – or some one will file a grievance with the union. And when the ones who really need the additional support opt out? There’s no recourse, since their “contract says you can’t make me.”
That system is broken.
And I’ll say again that as much as this all should be a separate bill, a separate debate about how to best improve the educational system, because it was lumped into the overall contract with the state, gamesmanship and all that is involved have been a huge barrier to improvement.
Pretty much what PP said – I think we should also have smaller classes on the principle that a lot of children have disorders at times that they’re had to reach. Not the type of special ED classes where people are given easier work. But perhaps more time to work on their abilities while still being trained to be capable in the work place. ( Or rather my lack of abilities, I look normal in all aspects I’m just completely stoic and literally have to control every portion of my body to show an emotion – I’ve learned to completely blend in with society but that is because I went to a very wonderful public school district that was willing to work with me in terms of being trained to show emotions and read other people. In that sense, I’ve become a ‘secret’ Schizoid by the time I was officially diagnosed at age eighteen. )
These children are quite literally a hand full or are from dysfunctional homes where there is abuse. Something important for the students is perhaps giving the children an aid in the class room that can help them with school work – furthermore with how overworked Americans are they should have more time with their family to keep track of them and help raise them or provide after school activities so they can save themselves in that sense.
Unfortunately we’ve become a society of parents never raising their children and they are being raised more so by the schools than their actual parents because they are either overworked or simply avoid the responsibility. This the main issue.
We need to have a way to get rid of bad teachers, but not in a sense of that sometimes they’re just frustrated and might be saying how much of a pain in the butt the students are. I also do not think it should not be defined by grades either, since a lot of teachers then will just start marking people with good grades so that they can keep their jobs. What we need is more local teaching and why No Child Left Behind Act was a- ahem – clusterfuck in that sense. Another one I think we must look into are special ED teachers that have cases of abuse towards children at times but nobody is sure whether to believe the child or not because they may have a learning disability or a personality disorder. ( This is coming from one student who had to suffer from 3rd to 5th grade and saw the abuse to other children as well. He was never taken out because he used the argument of my disorder. He used that argument for all the students but it was enough to put two aids in his room so he could be under constant watch until he retired. )
However I think many of the teachers want the bad ones gone, as Ed Heinzelman said and would be willing to work with that but there are a lot of aspects that have to be looked into, both from within the school, outside of the school, the specific child’s home life, their disorders, and how consistent the children are learning.
I had an opportunity to talk to quite a few MPS teachers over the past few months. Few are opposed to having a valid mechanism in place to remove unqualified or ineffective teachers. And there are currently processes in place to do so. The problem is current processes aren’t utilized because administrators can’t/don’t/won’t document the issues as required. All too often teachers don’t even receive the annual performance reviews that are required…sometimes for years.
Simply put, teachers would accept a peer review process, consistent across the school system that would include feedback and mentoring, and finally termination if a teacher can’t do the job. This is one of the things that I would have liked to partner with the union and superintendent on if elected.
The good teachers know that they can’t afford bad teachers to remain in the classroom…it makes there job harder.
I agree almost completely with you, Ed. The vast majority of teachers want the bad ones gone – they make their own lives more difficult as well. The teachers union has fought for years, pretty much in direct opposition to it’s own members’ best interests.
There are teachers who literally pick up whatever they are doing and get up and walk out at 3:17 or whatever time is specified. Certainly not most, but some do. Working with a kid – or a parent wants to meet to talk about something? Too bad. And there is not a single thing an administrator can do about it because if that’s what the contract says, that’s the end of it.
In the real world, people work that sort of thing out like adults. Most union employees probably do as well. But the union contracts and workplace rules enable the worst of the worst to behave like that.
Ed I can honestly say the milwaukee voters made a major mistake on Tuesday!! Stay in the fight!
The students are getting a great lesson in democracy and fighting for your rights! Don’t underestimate the intelligence of the students…they know what is going on.
I couldn’t agree more, and I’ll add that I talked to a few students at the rally on Tuesday who weren’t exactly sure what was going on, but who were eager to learn more about what we are facing.
Got to love protestors who don’t know why they are protesting! Like the kid who said “We’re trying to stop whatever this dude is doing.”
It is deplorable teachers can indoctrinate and use their students as pawns in their supposed battle. And they claim it’s “all about the kids.” Right.
Or maybe he was being a kid period. “We got to stop whatever they dude doing”? That sounds like common slang to me in these days, since I was around that youthful age during the hell hole of the Bush Years. Not everyone is articulate.
It indicates he knew of no specific issues (“whatever”) or the name of the “dude” or who he is. Slang or not, he could have had at least enough respect to use the last name, if he even knows it. I won’t even insist he precede it by the title “Governor” as that one guy on here is all bent out of shape about, although he probably won’t be defending respect for Walker.
Would that equate to keep your government hands off my medicare? Or maybe Taxed enough already people who complain about obama despite the fact he lowered their taxes.
Protesting against government action you disagree with is a great thing.
Protesting at someone’s house is not. At the office or capital, great. More power to you. At their home – inappropriate, classless behavior.
Personally I think it would have been pretty funny for them to do it outside of WTMJ or something. Of course that’s just me getting a chuckle out of that and I wouldn’t suggest that as a good idea.
I disagree. Walker and the TEA Party changed all the rules. “Inappropriate, classless behavior”…is all they understand.
I don’t recall TEA Party members picketing outside of Doyle’s house as he was ballooning our states fiscal mess…
Yeah they were burning effigies with Obama to be pissed at Doyle I think.
I guess last month’s call for civility by the left and the media is now over as these protestors (and a State Senator) are calling Walker a dictator, Hitler, Mussolini, and Mubarack. Saying Walker is a terrorist who is raping them. Signs that say “Death to Tyrants.” And even signs with gun sites over Walker’s picture.
Civil discourse?! Hypocrites.
Oh please, you’re just using your arguments and hypocrisy again while you were crying over last that they were just words and now it hurts doesn’t it now that is is your side. Your side immediately was on Obama like white on rice, and now you’re crying GIVE POOR WALKER A CHAAAAANCE when he is doing absolute bullshit.
Plus, for the most part despite the words they are — GASP. Peaceful! I know it’s an amazing concept to grasp but maybe they were inspired by the Egyptians! Who would have thought, but then again you’re probably having a panic attack thinking about the future of the country. Considering that sometimes cars get destroyed just for having a support sticker of Obama on it and a whole family getting driven off the road or someone beaten and stabbed to near bloody pulp with a cue stick.
No I don’t care what you call him. Just point out you were the guys just LAST MONTH saying how we all need to watch our words or things will get out of hand. Until it’s someone YOU didn’t vote for and does something YOU don’t like.
“Plus, for the most part despite the words they are — GASP. Peaceful!” And how is this different from talk show hosts you were criticizing just LAST MONTH?
We weren’t threatening to call on the National Guard at every Tea Party Rally.
Once again… the National Guard has only been given a heads up in case correctional officers strike and prisons need to be guarded.
It sounded like he was pedaling backwards after he said it. That was added on later.
REALLY? You think there is a teacher shortage in those states? Not sure they want to go to Illinois I hears their legislatures are also looking at ways to end collective bargaining down there.
Definitely, in the metropolitan areas and the rural areas. There are 50 other states to go to, they can jump wherever they please, they don’t have a loyalty to one consistent state.
Liberals don’t care when policies they enact affect businesses leaving the state, so might as well let a few teachers go too, if they think they have such a raw deal here.
That’s funny because your side didn’t have any problem trying to ban Green Energy or any jobs you don’t like.
What jobs are those? I have no problem with any job created in the free market. I think what you are referring to are artifically-created-by-government jobs.
You know what?
What jobs are those? Oh I don’t know, the ones that were made during this recession and actually real stabilized with new technology! The one in Oshkosh for instance, all over the state with technology that’s beginning to grow while Governor Walker tried to restrict those with a law that would have made it the most strict in the United States. Walker doesn’t even know how to run a county much less a damn state. But oh I forgot that isn’t his fault because he’s a conservative and … LIBERALSDOYLEDOYLESHUTUP!!!
You are referring to windmills? Without their heavy subsidization, they would never make it as a viable, low-cost energy source. But that’s neither here nor there. They are hardly keeping our economy afloat.
Not just the windmills, I mean the embryonic stem cell research, the health and human services, the lawyers, teachers, the new technology and everything that’s coming up. Soon everything will be run by machines and we will have to brutally shift our ideas elsewhere.
You cannot justify losing the right to bargain without deflecting the conservation to something else.This is just a needless attempt to bust Unions so that you can pay people for lesser wages period throughout the entire the state. By killing unions, you will be killing yourself if you are in the middle class. Luckily, I climbed before the gap will begin – the question is where will you fall?
Well more power to them then. Hope they aren’t married and have kids though, spouse would need to find a new job kids would start at a new school no friends, away from probably family. Yep sounds all like great ideas just so they don’t have to pay into their retirement or health care plans
I say it’s a good idea, people move all the time just as people decide to live down in warmer places for the rest of their days.
When things start going to shit? You move before it gets worse no matter how many friends you have in the state. You find a way to work around it and I’m sure Illinois and Minnesota would willingly open their doors for the teachers and many other state workers over here. I personally have no intention moving as a business person,
I personally would get a kick at a mass exodus of teachers.
Who do you think would say “uncle” first…Walker or the teachers…if the teachers went on strike?
Actually, read this here.
I did read the link and this is what I saw so I am not sure why you are all giddy.
Fitzgerald said Wednesday that some changes will be made to the bill by the Legislature’s budget committee, but the core parts of Governor Walker’s proposal taking away collective bargaining rights and forcing higher pension and health insurance contributions will remain
Honestly I don’t get how you think you can fire all those people and not have ill effects but all right.
Everyone is pissed about collective bargaining rights. And they’re going to continue to be angry about that until they put that back – they’ll take cuts, they’ll take higher pensions, they’ll take higher insurance contributions — but I don’t think they’re going to take away their freedom. I’ll see how the conservatives stand, this only the beginning.
Remember you live in a purple state, not a red state.
What about the freedom to NOT be part of the union? The freedom to NOT be forced to pay union dues (the bulk of which goes to fund political campaigns)?
It is a voluntary organization from what I remember in the public sector. Furthermore when it comes to private it is either an open shop, an agency shop, or a union shop.
I don’t see how it’s much different of working for a business and that business funding extremist groups despite you not agreeing with them.
However that has noting to do with bargaining rights being taken away. For example: Teachers often use those rights to have smaller classes so they could handle teaching children making sure that knowledge sticks.
You remember incorrectly, it’s not voluntary. You cannot opt out – you cannot choose to keep your money and not pay your dues. Try and think of an analogous situation, I’d really like to hear it. Where as a requirement for employment, you are required to give your money to a third party. Well, aside from the health care mandate, that is.
This is a critical component for the unions. They know that if people could opt out – to choose to not contribute hundreds of dollars every year – many would.
Oh and your situation with a business contributing to an extremist organization…not really the same at all. Now if that business requires it’s employees contribute then we’re talking apples to apples.
The solution is simple. Get a different job. It’s a free country. If you don’t like paying union dues find a job where you don’t have to.
Anon, the solution is simple! It is a free country so if you don’t like the wages and benefits the stae is offering, you can find a different job too.
Except, you know they have a freedom to collective bargain.
That’s one thing we probably want to have.
T., who’s “we”?
We as in the old school Republicans who remembered a time when the party was sane and not lead by extremists. We as in republicans are genuinely fiscally conservative and based in reality. The republicans who are in the unions but do not wish to see their bargaining rights taken away from them since they were often too busy to pay attention to the way the Republicans have only grown into bullet points that contradict each other.
Please, they’re no real different in that sense. The only difference is that businesses for the people at the top do it, while unions actually openly support it and say that hey we’re going to be donating to this guy.
Whatever evil things the unions do are the same damn thing that businesses do – if businesses had their way they would hire illegal immigrants because they would be able to pay them less. What happens to the middle class, they don’t give a shit. Why else do you think businesses move down Mexico or to China for?
They have other jobs to go to, and no don’t go crying there are no jobs because guess what — you always use that argument against unions in the first place when they mention their payment or that they have a lack of rights. If they had problems with unions, they’d leave it and not have outrage over it. It’s not impossible to find a place to work that is an open shop.
Either way it’s an issue of removing their bargaining rights, simple as that. And I’m saying this as someone who has climbed up their way into the upper class through sheer tenacity and determination. But it won’t be effecting me anymore, you could be AMAZED how much money I got now because I hit a certain point. Oh I causally think maybe I should be more taxed, but now I’m probably set for life. Sure is boring as all hell though.
No. Not at all. There is a fundamental difference between forcing an employee to pay union dues out of their own paycheck and business owners taking their profits and spending them on politics.
If you can’t see that, I don’t know how to explain it any more clearly.
Most people in Unions are fully aware of were their money goes as soon as they sign up. If they have a problem with it they can move to another job where they are free to do something else. Despite what people say, there are jobs – there always were jobs. We’re just too prideful to take the ones at the bottom.
Considering it also goes into their health and benefits, that’s just one small price to pay. Just like how they won’t be covered for anything in the case of higher paycheck in some private sectors without unions. They’re aware of it, because it’s only the people who aren’t a part of unions I’ve noticed for the most part that complain about it. They have the freedom to vote for someone else or not to vote at all.
I just can’t get my head around people justifying you should lose your bargaining rights that effects almost everything in terms of their actions.
For as much as people go on about big government, Walker is sure applying a lot of it to our daily lives.
TEACHERS as they would all be fired replacemnets and replacements hired. I personally believe once the union is dissolved there will be a few not to bright holdouts but the majority will report to work.
Catch up on the news my friend and look at my link – they’re beginning to buckle because their knees are beginning to bend backwards.
Zach can probably attest to this from yesterday, but I just got home and that was one of THE coolest things I have ever been a part of. Democracy in action is very touching!!! will have pics soon.
For some of those looking to throw a wrench into Scott Walker’s plans here is something that could create some controversy.
Tim Russell, one of Walker’s cabinet members was seen campaigning for Jeff Stone at his campaign headquarters by another disenfranchised member of the Republican Party. Tim Russell is also the former Treasurer of the Republican Party of Milwaukee County who failed to file 3 consecutive GAB financial reports. How good does it look for the governor who wants to rewrite the law in his favor, and yet he and his people can’t even follow it?
As someone who was asked to become interim treasurer for the RPMC – and who respectfully declined because my beliefs do not align to theirs – I feel that it is my duty to start brining these malfesences to the public’s attention to show that Scott and his people think they are entitled to be above the law.
Since no one really knows what is in this bill….does anyone know who actually wrote it?
I don’t know…for some reason I’m getting a laugh out of thinking of all those private sector employees having to stay home to take care of their kids because all the teachers went on strike. If you want them (private sector) to see the public sector’s side…make them stay home with their screaming kids day after day all the while losing their daily wage…LOL.
(I know that’s mean…)
Anon, some of the folks in the private sector unions get what’s going on here; I saw folks from UFCW, USW, and the Teamsters at the rally on Tuesday, and when I was at the grocery store picking up batteries before leaving for Madison, some guys from Ladish saw my green AFSCME shirt and told me to fight the good fight in Madison.
Oh no…I was just talking about the private sector/businesses who aren’t in unions…you know…the “taxpayers”.
I heard Walker say that again today…something about hearing the public/union employees but that he also hears the taxpayers…as if the public employees don’t pay taxes. What a dishonest weasel.
Yeah real funny. I pay taxes and these people don’t do their jobs. Those teachers aren’t helping their case or getting people on their side by closing down schools and not doing their jobs. Yet they say “it’s all about the kids.” They should face consequences at work, but I know they won’t.
They’ve made the case for parochial schools for me. I don’t want these people teaching my children.
My school district just canceled and I could not be more proud of our teachers! Unions are pure democracy in the workplace and its awesome to see Democracy in action. It is an amazing teachable moment for the kids.
No, a teachable moment would be them learning what they need to IN CLASS. Did these teachers pull them out of class to attend a tea party rally? No. And I wouldn’t want them too.
You are proud?! It is disgraceful and a joke. I pay tax dollars for them not to teach our kids? Are they going to add on days at the end of the school year?
Unions are pure democracy… ha ha ha. Now I have had a good laugh for the evening. Ridiculous.
Yeah, so basically you agree with the massive cuts to education?
This right here and now what is happening is the perfect argument against big government. Whether a program or policy makes sense or not, government can never rid itself of it because of the rabid constituency created that will defend it. It’s hard to say government can’t pay your ENTIRE pension anymore or continue an unnecessary program when there are real lives and families on the line that will have to cut back. See?
Walker made one tough decision that won’t even result in loss of jobs, and everyone goes nuts and I don’t doubt it will crimp some people, but government exists to serve the public, not cater lavish benefits to a select few.
This is actually extremely big government. It gives walker incredible powers and takes the powers away from the local municipalties and the people. Hell it even gives walker the power over state medicare. HUGE government takeover of our economy.
There are also reports of it draining up to $1 billion from the state in 2 years and you think that wont result in a loss of jobs?
A teachable moment is one when people stand up for their rights! Its called democracy in action. People came from all over the state to take over the people’s house. I know that you think we should just do as WMC says but that is not going to happen here. Yes I am proud and I have sent a letter of support to my sons teacher! My son also held a meeting at recess with all of his friends and told them how bad the bill is and how it could affect them(he is in 2nd grade) and then told his teacher he appreciates her.
Secondly the teachers are NOT pulling anyone out of class, they are exercising their rights as citizens/taxpayers to actually have a voice in THEIR government. It would be great if they did not need to go during a school day, but I missed where the Governor accomadated them with an alternative time.
Unions are pure democracy as a bunch of people get together, ELECT a leader and speak as one voice. It does not get any more pure than that!
The one fundamental problem with your argument is:
What happens when you are told no?
Unionize and try to collective bargain all you want, but what happens when an employer(as we did in November) says that you can’t? I know what would happen if I tried it with mine.
The fact of the matter is, collective bargaining is NOT A RIGHT, it’s a privilege.
And furthermore:
“Unions are pure democracy as a bunch of people get together” – the people of WI
“ELECT a leader” – Scott Walker
“speak as one voice.” – November 2nd, 2010
Somehow what you say is okay, but when people get together to elect someone right of center, it’s not.
I don’t recall Scott Walker the gubernatorial candidate talking about how he was going to end collective bargaining for public employee unions.
Every teacher that is not in the class room Thursday needs to be fired they do not care about teaching kids, they only care about their paycheck DISGUSTING!.
Yet they wanted to be treated like professionals.
You two are really something. Of course they care about their paycheck…many of them have their own children they need to feed, clothe, and put a roof over their heads. WTH?? Should they sacrifice their families just to make you happy?
Yes i would have no problem with anyone attending a “tea party” either. As long as the teachable moment was how utterly ridiculous they were.
What was ridiculous about telling Jim Doyle and the Dems not to increase spending or taxes?
Nope nothing ridiculous about people running around the capitol screaming, banging on drums, and calling our governor Hitler. Clearly that’s an important lesson that our kids couldn’t watch on the news. They need a whole day watching their teachers act like bafoons over contributing to their own pension and health benefits. That requires 8 hours? No wonder they don’t know math or science. At least they will get a glimpse at some burned out hippies.
i spent the whole day there and saw NO one call walker hitler…..i made a point to take lots of pics(still coming) and never saw anyone with a HITLER sign. Nor did I see anyone carrying a rifle or a gun.
If you think its just about contributing to their pension you have not been paying attention. Ats for what is ridiculous about the tea parties, I have written about their ridiculousness extensively. Just say it is hard to take a group who is worried about spending serious when they have tommy thompson and paul ryan as their main speakers.
PP, I did see a fair number of folks carrying signs comparing Walker to Hitler, and clearly that kind of comparison is beyond the pale.
However, just to address one of forgot’s comments, these rallies/protests aren’t just “some burned out hippies;” and I really resent your attempt to portray the protests as such.
Zach, I think it was 2 different crowds. I honestly was looking and honestly saw not one hitler reference.
I did see a lot of mubarak references which I think is a fair comparison.
Pp there have been Hitler references to wAlker on this blog. My grandfather fought in WWII and to even make the comparison is personally offensive. To compare walker to Mubarak is also inappropriate. Are you suggesting walker has personally promoted murder and torture? The comparison is offensive to all Egyptians that have actually suffered. I have relatives in the Mideast and to even attempt to make the comparison is specious logic and down right offensive to everyone that has actually been oppressed. I personally believe that there is a significant difference between dragging people out of their homes in the middle of the night and killing them and making public employes pay a portion of their benefits. But it appears that you do not.
Pp, I appreciate that you are passionate but you need to tone down the rhetoric. Generally Zach and T avoid engaging in such charged rhetoric and their comments make their point more convincingly than your posts. In short, keep your passion but do it in a respectful manner.
Cheers.
There might have been Hitler references on this blog but none came from me. I cant speak to nor have control over anyone else. What Iwas saying was I honestly was looking for Hitler signs and i honestly saw none yesterday.
I also still stand by the egypt comparisons, workers took to the streets and forced change. I am not the only one to make this comparison
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/15/AR2011021504339.html
In Egypt, workers are having a revolutionary February. In the United States, by contrast, February is shaping up as the cruelest month workers have known in decades.
But even as workers were helping topple the regime in Cairo, one state government in particular was moving to topple workers’ organizations here in the United States. Last Friday, Scott Walker, Wisconsin’s new Republican governor, proposed taking away most collective bargaining rights of public employees.
It’s a throwback to 19th-century America, when strikes were suppressed by force of arms. Or, come to think of it, to Mubarak’s Egypt or communist Poland and East Germany.
Super, could you post a link to the comparisons of Walker and Hitler made by myself, PP, Mad City Man, or one of the other contributors? I ask only because I did a search and I couldn’t find any.
Zach, this was the post I had in mind:
http://bloggingblue.com/2011/02/13/why-its-important-to-have-strong-labor-unions/#comments
To be clear, I have never suggested that you, pp, or Mad City Man, made the Hitler comparision. I do feel that PP’s Mubarak comparision is likewise inappropriate and offensive. Mubarak ran a regim that condoned murder and torture of political opponents. For example, the Guardian detailed some of the abuses:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/09/egypt-army-detentions-torture-accused
Super, thanks for clarifying what you were referring to; I just wanted to make sure I didn’t miss one of our contributors making that comparison, which I believe is clearly taking it too far.
I would personally compare him to Arnold Schwarzenegger due to busting unions, spending on nonsensical things, and we all know how he really helped California. Scott Walker is doing the same exact style as him which is going to put Wisconsin in an even bigger deficit, trust me.
Of course you’re likely going to blame the liberals, so it’s not best to actually point that out.
i would rather have my kids at a Tea Party rally instead of ine where there are a bunch of shelfish greedy union teachers screaming anger and vile and lies and acting like whores.
I wouldn’t bring them there, too many guns. Can you imagine if one little kid grabbed it while you weren’t looking and —
POW.
Do you lose your grip on reality after 10pm?
Nah. I just laugh at your morals. 🙂
But I’m not afraid to admit I’m a hypocrite – in fact I wouldn’t mind if I was called one because hypocrites make it far in life as I’ve discovered. Or like to think they do and cry about it when they lose their jobs. I’ll be blunt though – I have a disorder that I won’t say that effects my brain however I am able to put up a look of being able to socialize, but I really have no desire to do so.
Chances are, this has become a gift for me because it helps me get to the top without any qualms or kicking aside hypocrites like yourself to blame on the liberals.
I’ve climbed my way to the top with your ideals your worship that you probably never worked with and made it my raison d’etre. It’s possible, painful, but possible if you stomp on everyone else.
Scott Walker’s a hypocrite, yet I haven’t seen a single commenter here go after him for his hypocrisy.
Of course you wouldn’t hear it. Scott Walker cannot do wrong, he has an (R) behind his name.
Well I’ll say (if I haven’t already) that I don’t like the method here at all. Though this is clearly tied to the the budget in that it’s one way to address part of the critical financial problems the state has, it should be done on it’s own. Debated on it’s merits.
It certainly has all the makings of the very same “ramming though” that both the State and Federal legislatures did a very short time ago.
But reluctantly I also have to admit that I think it may be the only way to save any money in this area. If they were 18 months behind in working out a deal with Doyle and the previous legislature, can you honestly tell me that the unions were going to actually negotiate AT ALL with Walker? They would’ve gone on without a deal for the entire 4 years, waiting to see if he gets re-elected.
The biggest issue to be addressed is the health care and retirement/pension benefits which are a huge, and open ended commitment by the state so long into the future that they look to balloon literally exponentially. Compared to this, wages really aren’t much of a concern.
Now the workplace rules portion – that may well be piling on in that it doesn’t have much of anything to do with the budget crisis. Inexplicably, the unions have been choosing to fight tooth & nail – not to give an inch on this in the past. For all the talk about damaging the educational system, the inability to fire awful teachers is by far the most damaging. As horrible as NYC’s rubber rooms are, at least they’re keeping those people away from the kids unlike here. I said inexplicable – it just boggles the mind that the teachers unions care so little not only for the students, but even for vast majority of good teachers out there that they fight so hard for the terrible ones.
Locke, the issue here (at least for the vast majority of folks I talked to) isn’t the pension and health insurance payments; it’s taking away the ability to negotiate virtually everything else. We won’t be able to negotiate work rules, disciplinary procedures, work safety standards, etc., etc.
That stuff has absolutely nothing to do with the budget; neither does requiring the unions to recertify every year. Those are just blatant attempts to weaken the unions.
I did address that – though admittedly broadly – by lumping all of those things into all of those things to what I called the workplace rules portion.
I’ll admit to not knowing the specifics with regard to a lot of the jobs lumped in. My brother is an Assistant Vice Principle – and since he was hired (after being a teacher for 7 or 8 years) I’ve heard a lot about the workplace rules he has to deal with. Things like teachers filing grievances over being required to pay $5 for a parking pass, or being asked to stay beyond 3:17.
But like I said, in other work areas, I don’t have much background. Conceptually, I don’t understand why most of that stuff would be part of a contract. Thinks like worker safety standards are typically legislated or there are industry requirements (like OSHA). As employees of the government, you’re employer is the government. As such, following the laws isn’t something that is optional. Specific policies and procedures, I’d imagine should be specific to the type of work and the workplace/location itself and not part of the overarching contract. Am I wrong? I’d really think that would apply to disciplinary things as well. The sort of things that might require a disciplinary action in your field would be very different from buss driver or a nurse, etc.
If the contract with the state for all of that stuff explicitly covers every detail imaginable, then I guess it’s no wonder the contracts take forever.
I don’t understand why the vast majority of these issues aren’t handled the way…you know, the normal world handles them. You hire managers and trust them to…you know…manage their employees & their areas.
WHo cares letthem wast $$$$ going to Madison the votes are there to passit they have no way to stop it and it is going to be a great day in Wisconsin once these unions are no longer around to terrorize the good people of this state……so have your little fit teachers the only onces who care are you.
Not sure how old you are but across the board people understood (since before the 1980′s) that private sector jobs would pay more and have less benefits. While public sector jobs paid less and had more benefits. It was up to you to decide what you wanted.
Did you decide? Was it a good choice? So stop complaining!
But what eroded first was the private sector- they lowered wages and lowered benefits they even went so far as to deny pensions. At the same time executive salaries, benefits, and options skyrocketed – and still are. Guess what – the worker suffered the most. Are you one of them?
In government salaries and benefits have not increased like private business did. Benefits costs have increased but so hasn’t the contribution by the government workers. Not only are these workers working for us they help us. That is their job.
Today Unions in the private sector has diminished to almost non-existence. Bless Ronnie’s heart. Word has it he tried to break up the Union of Saints in heaven. But after God heard the complaints from the Union, God told Ronnie to “Go to hell!” Now Ronnie is trying to unionize the souls in Hell to redeem himself.
I know the people at the rallies are open to new converts like you. Not only will they welcome you in – they will give you the help you need! Unlike some of the unscrupulous corporations that stole your pension money and asked the USA taxpayer to foot the bill. (research this and find out who was in office – don’t be surprised when it looks bi-partisan)
So my blinders are off and I can see that you haven’t done your research! I promise you will feel better and informed.
So please open your mind and stop being controlled by the misconceptions of the Governor.
If the Governor’s perception is wrong – his solution is wrong!
Spread the word – L I B E R A L L Y, F I G U R A T I V E L Y , and L I T E R A L L Y
(newly added instructions)
if the teachers were willing to pay their fair share I think more people would be supporting them but no one believes that if collective barginging is aroudn they will negotiate honestly. The only way to get them to pay their fair is too do what is being done, its that simple. Unions are not to be trusted.
You guys have bit off more than you can chew on this one.
My wife and I rode back from Madison today with a busload of people who have heretofore been largely uninvolved in politics, by their own admission. Many were, and I use the past tense very deliberately, republicans.
Almost all of them had never been to an event like the one today in Madison. Never protested anything before today. They were chatty on the way down; work, kids, popular culture, small talk.
On the way back the cell phones were lit up with organizing. Many sheepishly admitted they hadn’t paid attention to politics for much of their lives; asking questions, absorbing the answers, growing determined.
You guys don’t realize what you’ve done. You’ve assumed that garnering the 26% to 27% of the eligible electorate you swayed in the midterms translates into the support of the people of Wisconsin. Your arithmetic is in error. No doubt the fault of a union teacher.
You guys are in for a rumble the likes of which this state hasn’t seen in a long, long time.
Amen Steve!
I couldn’t agree more with this.
We may very well lose this fight (though I hope to God we don’t), but if we do lose this fight, there will be others. More than a few of the Republican State Senators who support this measure are outside the recall “safety zone,” and at least a couple (Sen. Hopper, Sen. Darling) aren’t exactly in districts that went overwhelmingly for the GOP when they were last up for election, and Sen. Hopper has more than a few correctional institutions and state offices in his district.
Amen Steve and Zach!!
We are going to lose this fight but we have to rememeber this next election. Send more than just a couple of representatives to the unemployment line, we have to take over a couple of “safe” districts also.
We may not lose this fight; it’s not over yet.
Funny you don’t see that the cost savings on a fair share portion of teacher insurance won’t make a dent in the deficit.
For a fiscal conservative you must have flunked math.
Wait you even flunked geometry because it is clear you cannot connect the dots.
Wisconsin Deficit does not equal Teachers Insurance Expenses nor Union power over government spending.
BTW – who does your budgets at home. We can help with that.
If the Governor’s perception is wrong – his solution is wrong!
Spread the word – L I B E R A L L Y, F I G U R A T I V E L Y , and L I T E R A L L Y
(newly added instructions)
As a former candidate for school board, I think that Governor Walker’s inclusion of county, municipal and public school teachers is over reaching. If this is about balancing the state budget, there should be two line items in his budget: STATE employees pay X% into their pensions for this next budget period…and STATE employees pay X% for their healthcare benefits for this next budget period…because we are in an economic emergency. The rest is all nonsense for this particular bill and should either be negotiated with the unions openly, fairly and in due course or submitted as a separate labor bill and again discussed openly and fairly in the legislature with ample time for public input.
If I had been elected to the board, I would RESENT the Governor’s intervention into the things that MPS could negotiate with ITS employees. I wouldn’t want Madison to tie my hands or limit the things I could do as a board member. This is more egregious and bigger government than the mayoral takeover that I also opposed.
You won’t find a bigger proponent of local control than me. About 2 years ago, when we were in the process of moving, school district was by far largest factor. We actually compromised on a lot less house than what we could’ve bought in one of the other area districts. I probably spent a hundred hours or more on the decision when you include all of the research into the area districts. Pouring over data including (evil) standardized test scores, programs offered, extra-curricular participation rates, reading reviews, touring schools and talking with vice/principals, guidance counselors and teachers. I compared mill rates, per student spending, average class size, you name it, I dug into it. I went to school board meetings for 3 different districts! Halfway though our 2nd school year (kids in 3rd grade and kindergarten) I’m not only thrilled with my choice, I’ve been more impressed all the time.
I honestly believe the quality of my district – all of the things I really love – have very little, if anything to do with the state, the federal government or the teachers union. We have a tremendous district administrator who has hired great people and supported them. Though I’ve only been there a year and a half, I volunteer and am at the school at least one day every other week. I’ve met a lot of people. In my interactions with them – every single one of them – teachers, guidance counselors, special ed teachers, gifted & talented teachers, lunch ladies, custodians – the one thing I walked away thinking was that they cared about the kids and took pride in the school. That doesn’t come from their paychecks. Sure as heck doesn’t come from their union. Comes from themselves and probably attributed to their parents. And having co-workers and administrators they like, respect and trust.
All that said, I understand the state’s stake in all of this. The state is picking up by far the largest piece of the tab. Somewhere between 50-60 percent of the cost, state wide. Want to change it so each district pays most of it’s expenses on it’s own? I’d be the first in line to vote on that referendum. Let my district hire and fire who they want. Determine pay and benefits on their own. Pay for it all (or at least mostly) on their own. Screw the state. Screw the Feds. Screw the NEA and screw WEAC. My school board answers to me. My district administrator and principals answer to me. The rest don’t.
Probably my biggest rant since I’ve been commenting here. My apologies – but 2 pages and 123 comments into a thread, probably nobody will read it anyway. 😐
I read it, and I agree with some of what you wrote.
‘…the one thing I walked away thinking was that they cared about the kids and took pride in the school. That doesn’t come from their paychecks.’
Pay is a very limited motivation for most professionals not matter what line of work they go into…which is why it amazes me that so many proponents of Gov. Walker’s legislation focus on the $$$ and not the other parts of the bill which are really what these rallies are about.
Pull the non-dollar items from this ‘budget bill’ and put them in a ‘labor bill’ for future discussion and watch the situation change.
Ed, I’ve been saying that very same thing all along. What most folks are upset about aren’t the concessions on pension and health care contributions; they’re upset about the anti-union provisions in the bill. Take those provisions out and I’m betting these protests would evaporate.
The issue here isn’t really about increased pension and health insurance payments; the issue is collective bargaining. I’m willing to bet if the changes to collective bargaining and the unions were taken off the table, this whole thing would fizzle out.
I work with a fine lady whose husband is an AD at one of the university schools here in the state and she said the collective bargining is a the main issue the “paycut” also is playing a major part in the dissent. There is no paycut I explained to her there is more out of pocket from her husband to pay for thier benefits, that is NOT a paycut, but she disagrees with me.
I’m not sure how you think taking more money out of someone’s check isn’t essentially a pay cut, but if I saw less take home pay as a result of something like this (which I will), that’s a cut in my take home pay.
That’s less money I have to spend on gas, groceries, utility bills, and non-essential stuff, meaning I’m going to be less likely to do my part to “stimulate the economy.”
Ultimately though, I’m willing to see my take home pay reduced because of increased health insurance costs because I know that sometimes sacrifices need to be made. My issue here is the attempt to break public employee unions. Take those provisions out of Gov. Walker’s proposal and this whole protest would peter out pretty quick, because most folks know protesting over increased pension and health insurance premiums is a losing issue, given the state of the economy.
Why should taxpayers subsidize public sector pensions (completely) and health beneifts (majority share)?
Forgot are you kidding? They are union members they are special they are better then just the common worker, they deserve special treatment, all bow to the unions.
Again, you’re missing the point. The issue here isn’t pensions and health benefits – we’re upset about the attempt to take away collective bargaining rights.
In fact, the increased pension payments really only affect a segment of public employees (teachers), because a good number of state employees (including yours truly) are already paying the 5.8% that Gov. Walker has asked for.
This is not a “buudget repair bill” its a break the unions and hurt the democratic party bill. SO if they took the labor part out of it while the protests would evaporate, the republicans would lose interest in this bill then also.
They can yell and scream all they want its a done deal.
I do not know if you are even American – Really???
Are you afraid of freedom? Because George W. Bush said Osama Bin Laden was.
You do not want us to have our freedoms and so that makes you….
We are proud Americans and we will fight for our right to be heard and for our leaders to be accountable and transparent.
In the spring of 2006 Walmart came to Spooner, WI, after the Washburn County board of supervisors, in collaboration with the Spooner City council, entered into a purchase agreement with them for the sale of 35 acres of public land. The whole project was sprung on the public with very little notice.
Those townspeople and small business owners who went to Spooner city council meetings to complain began receiving anonymous hate mail. Some of it was very, very ugly. The county board chair told everyone to not bother fighting it because it was a “done deal”.
We formed a ctizens organization, an alliance of progressives and local republican business people called Washburn County First, and fought them anyway. It’s 2011 and there’s no Wal-Mart in Spooner WI.
Walkers union busting bill, and that’s what it is, it’s got precious little if anything to do with balancing the state budget, may pass, but at this point it’s no done deal.
And yet a day later, it’s still not a done deal.
And why is that Zach, simple answer, becuase 14 people who were elected to do a job ran away from their duties and are playing games like children. They are disgraceful and cowrads. They know they can do nothing to stop what is best for the state, they are just grandstanding for their voter base and the people who own them, unions. The volte will eventually happen and Wisconsin will continue to move forward.
Oh you again.
Blood pressure up? Spelling mistakes are getting worse?
BTW I personally have renewed faith in the Democrats. They put the brakes on the Governordictator’s plan to railroad a bill that has no IMMEDIATE urgency. Brilliant play by the Dems. This is better than watching the Super Bowl and the home team heroes will be paraded back to Madison in confetti made up of the Governordictator’s anti-democratic bill!!!!!
I love the USA!!!
Face it your on the wrong team – but there is always time to switch!
And once back the bill will pass and we can move onto to more important budget cuts.
I don’t find my State Senator “disgraceful” or a “coward”…he is doing exactly what I want him to do…and I don’t belong to a union. HA!