Milwaukee County Supervisor Pat Jursik and State Rep. Chris Sinicki, both supporters of redecking the Hoan Bridge no matter if there’s a cheaper alternative, today accused City of Milwaukee officials of attempting to delay the re-decking of the Hoan Bridge. Jursik and Sinicki based their allegations on a copy of a letter to Wisconsin Department of Transportation Secretary Frank Busalacchi from Milwaukee city engineer Jeffrey Polenske and Jeffrey Mantes, commissioner of the City of Milwaukee Department of Public Works. One passage within the letter notes, “[I]t is also our understanding that you remain open to conducting an alternatives analysis that would help determine the most cost effective long term transportation improvement. While the timing of such an analysis may conflict with the timing to start rehabbing the bridge we sense that there may be some minimal rehab effort that could be considered if a viable alternative develops. We are supportive of this approach.”
Jursik, who has previously indicated she supports implementing toll roads to pay for redecking the Hoan Bridge, responded today to the allegations of an attempt by Milwaukee officials to delay redecking the Hoan Bridge by saying:
“At a September meeting of the Metropolitan Milwaukee Association of Commerce (MMAC), Wisconsin Department of Transportation (DOT) Secretary Frank Busalacchi promised to begin engineering studies for the re-decking of the Hoan Bridge. The County Board unanimously approved the request for an engineering study, and the County Executive (Scott Walker) agreed.”
Jursik also noted “overwhelming support” for the Hoan bridge, noting a petition with 8,079 signatures of residents supporting the Hoan had been presented to Governor Doyle’s Milwaukee office.
What I’d like to know is what Pat Jursik’s definition of “overwhelming support” is, because there are roughly 48,000 residents living in Cudahy, South Milwaukee, and St. Francis, and only 16% bothered to sign petitions supporting the Hoan Bridge. What’s more, the petitions in support of the Hoan Bridge were widely circulated throughout those communities, so the fact that only 16% of citizens signed petitions shouldn’t be seen as “overwhelming support” of keeping the Hoan Bridge. If anything, I’m willing to bet a good number of the citizens of the communities Supervisor Jursik represents would be in favor of whatever would be the most cost effective option when it comes to I-794 and the Hoan Bridge, whether that option includes keeping the Hoan Bridge or replacing it with something else.
16% isn’t a low number considering a lot of the folks probably don’t even know what the Hoan Bridge is…or ever use it. I know I didn’t until my daughter started going to UW-Milwaukee and then moved to the east side of Milwaukee. But…then again…I’m not really a good example of the average person.
I’m curious though…what do you think should be done with the Hoan Bridge? I personally don’t like the drawbridge option because it sounds like it could tie up traffic. I really like it the way it is. It’s very convenient…don’t you think?
I use the Hoan Bridge every day on my commute to and from work, and while there’s no denying it’s convenient, I’m looking at the costs associated with repairing it. I don’t know how accurate the DoT’s estimate is, but I saw a number something like $200+ million to redeck the Hoan Bridge in the next few years, and then in 20 or 25 more years, the entire bridge will need to be replaced, as it will have reached the end of its lifespan. The cost to completely replace the Hoan could likely end up in the high hundreds of millions of dollars, so it would seem to me that it would make sense to study all options, including a lower bridge and street-level parkway.
Zach you must be ignorant, foolish or naïve. You pick the one that fits.
In you false logic,
“What I’d like to know is what Pat Jursik’s definition of “overwhelming support” is, because there are roughly 48,000 residents living in Cudahy, South Milwaukee, and St. Francis, and only 16% bothered to sign petitions supporting the Hoan Bridge. What’s more, the petitions in support of the Hoan Bridge were widely circulated throughout those communities, so the fact that only 16% of citizens signed petitions shouldn’t be seen as “overwhelming support” of keeping the Hoan Bridge.”
You and your reads should read, Recognizing and Avoiding Logical Fallacies
http://www.rightviewwi.com/the_right_view_wisconsin/Fallacies.html
What is widely circulated?
I emailed randy who also lives in Cudahy if Pat Jursik widely circulated the petitions, went door to door or did a mail drop. Now I understand that Randy is not the be all end all, but this adds perspective to your false logic, jump to conclusion and assumptions.
Randy’s email: “I only saw the petitions at the bridge meetings! No door to door or mail lit drops as far as any came to my house. Maybe by Zach, but not by me!”
I did email Pat Jursik with your link in hopes that she responds herself, but if she doesn’t does that mean via your false logic that she supports your thoughts?
“If anything, I’m willing to bet a good number of the citizens of the communities Supervisor Jursik represents would be in favor of whatever would be the most cost effective option when it comes to I-794 and the Hoan Bridge, whether that option includes keeping the Hoan Bridge or replacing it with something else.”
I think those same people you reference would love to save money on not having an RTA, KRM, upping the sales tax, property taxes or privatizing government jobs to save money!
Zach, why cannot be privatize more county and state jobs to save money? That is what you stand for right? To save money?
No I didn’t think so. Taking down the bridge fits your view to rid us of cars, bring in rail and buses. When you are going to admit the truth?
“then in 20 or 25 more years, the entire bridge will need to be replaced” that is the way wear and tear work on all streets/roads.
Here’s what Suervisor Jursik had to say about the Hoan:
Where was that “large majority” when it came time to sign the petitions Sup. Jursik and her allies were circulating? If the “large majority” of residents cared so deeply about the Hoan, then why didn’t they come out to support Sup. Jursik’s efforts? It’s not as if she didn’t publicize the Hoan Bridge meetings, so why didn’t a “large majority” of residents come to voice their support?
The petitions were also being circulated by local businesses, in addition to being made available at the “bridge meetings.”
As for your statement that my view is to rid us of cars, try not to generalize. I know it’s difficult for you not to generalize all liberals, but try it sometime. I’m not “anti-car;” I simply don’t see the logic in throwing money hand over fist into fixing a bridge that’s going to need to be completely torn down and rebuilt in 15 or 20 years, costing hundreds of millions of dollars more. What’s more, the fact that Sueprvisor Jursik has proposed instituting toll roads (aka a tax) to pay for the Hoan Bridge should be a cause for concern for anyone.
Zach listen to yourself. “I simply don’t see the logic in throwing money hand over fist into fixing a bridge that’s going to need to be completely torn down and rebuilt in 15 or 20 years, costing hundreds of millions of dollars more.” (BTW life span is 25-30 years. Look it up!!! Do the research yourself instead of listening to your lib friends and the words they whisper in your ear)
That is true of any road or bridge. Were you against redoing the Marquette Interchange?
At any past point you side with getting rid or you call it reducing cars and moving people to mass transit! Do you not read what you write or do you just write it and forget about it because it was not your own thought in the first place.
Again, are you for saving money?
Hi Jeff, I know you tend to see things in black and white, “us vs. them” distinctions, but the fact that I support mass transit does not mean I’m “anti-car,” as you’ve asserted. I simply believe in providing ample mass transit opportunities for those folks who either can’t afford to purchase cars or who’d rather utilize mass transit to get to and from work, etc.
But Zach, you want people out of cars and don’t care how it is done and making the drive harder, longer is a way to do it! It is black and white!
Where did you get your 15 to 20 year data from? Backup your gross underestimate for dramatics!
Based on DOT figures, the resurfacing and painting costs over the next five years would top $240 million.
About $250 million to $300 million more would be needed in 2025 to replace the Lake Interchange at the north end of the bridge, and a total replacement needed around 2050 would cost $2 billion to $3 billion, accounting for inflation.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/67049952.html
Did you know that the breakwater was actually built for just a 50-year lifespan?
http://www.milwaukeemagazine.com/currentIssue/full_feature_story.asp?NewMessageID=24470
Ah, so I got the Lake Interchange timeline confused with the Hoan Bridge timeline. You’ll have to pardon me for getting that point wrong.
Either way, we’re still looking at shelling out billions of dollars to replace the Hoan Bridge, on top of the hundreds of millions of dollars it will cost to get us to the end of the bridge’s lifespan. It seems like there has to be a more cost-effective way of approaching things.
All I’m advocating for here is some study of the issue. Let’s look at all the options, and if redecking the Hoan and then replacing it at the end of its lifetime is the best option, then so be it. I simply don’t understand why Sup. Jursik, Rep. Sinicki, and the other supporters of the Hoan are so averse to any type of study on the issue.
And Zach if Doyle didn’t raid the transportation fund to move the money to education to pay for WEAC, much of the money would have been there.
Since you are not dealing with facts and just makeup numbers that your lefty friends tell you, I am sure you will some stop replying.
We do know you didn’t ride the mass transit before has that changed?
http://www.rightviewwi.com/the_right_view_wisconsin/2008/08/ride-the-bus.html#comments
Remember you said these? “A call for a study does not equal a conspiracy.”
County Supervisor Pat Jursik should heed those words…
A call for a study does not equal a conspiracy.” And now you want the conspiracy?
Former Milwaukee Mayor John Norquist has a novel idea: build more street grids (emphasis mine):
[I]f you have a city with boulevards and avenues and no freeways, it’s going to be a lot more valuable. You look at Vancouver, they have no freeways whatsoever, and they have a fabulously intense and valuable real estate and job […]
Yes slow it all down, no freeways!!!!!
Jeff, what does a former Milwaukee Mayor have to do with the current discussion? What Mayor Norquist may or may not have believed regarding freeways is moot, because he hasn’t been Milwaukee’s Mayor for years.
As for what Gov. Doyle did with the transportation money, I’ll just say there’s a lot this governor has done that I don’t agree with.
Oh, and just because “Steve T.” said I never rode the bus doesn’t make it so. I rode the county bus to and from school every school day for two years when I lived in Milwaukee, so I know all too well that having lots of mass transit options is a good thing.
Fine Zach, but is it fair to say if I’m advocating for some study of the issue to privatize public jobs such as cleaning crews. You are fine with that right?
Two things, do you feel safe with the rebar that you can see (from one of your older comments on your site) while studies are done? And doing a study, how many of them do you want? Remember time is an issue and are you willing to give up safety for your studies?
My point with Steve’s post was that mass transit is not an option for all, including yourself and family! Cars are the dominate vehicle to move people beyond point a to b as rail and buses do.
Time is more valuable than money most of the time!
Jeff, you’ll find no argument from me that cars are the dominant mode of transportation, nor have I ever argued they shouldn’t be. All I’ve been trying to say is that having good public transit options is not a bad thing, especially considering there are lots of folks here in SE Wisconsin who don’t have cars to get them to and from.
As for your comments about studying the options regarding the Hoan, I’m not denying your point about the need for some action to be taken regarding the Hoan, and obviously if the DoT indicated the Hoan wasn’t safe for travel, I’d say take action immediately.
Zach you didn’t answer my questions!
Would it not be better for those without cars, to get them and not have to rely on buses? It would give them more freedom, time and opportunities that they don’t have with buses. They could get them between jobs, school or to daycare faster.
Novel idea, how about a study to scrap buses and give those in need of assistance monetarily, part of an allotment if they qualify instead of funding the buses and KRM?
The elderly, handicap and others in special needs could still get the van service door to door that is available today.
Keep those mechanics employed with the city/county to fix the cars on those who get the cars.
Make the cars need to use alterative fuel and make everyone in the state pay for car insurance.
This idea is Randy’s and Jay Weber’s I am using it, but have a bikes register and licensed like cars to help pay for the costs of the car insurance for those in true need! Just think of the revenue stream and untapped money bike owners (which I am one) could bring to the table to offset costs.
How about those apples, can we do a study on it independently, not a state, county or city study, but a blind study.
Jeff, let me get this straight…are you advocating for the government buying a car for each and every citizen who doesn’t have one?
Oh, and to answer your question regarding how safe I feel, I’ve been given no reason to question the safety of the Hoan, so yes, I do feel safe.
Zach, please answer all the questions I asked.
No I am not advocating the government buying a car for each and every citizen who doesn’t have one. Please reread what I said.
After you have reread it, start here!
First I am only saying let’s do a study. It was not for every citizen who doesn’t have one. See the problem you have Zach is you skim and interject what you think was said. Time and time again, this has been found the case.
Now go back and reread what I said, since you most like didn’t do it or comprehended it!
Then ask questions. I answer them!
Why are there so many in Milwaukee who feel a major city does not need a mass transit system? I suspect we would be the joke of the country, a city of 600,000 with our buses, that would be ridiculous.
In any event the Hoan must be torn down, the parkway from Pennsylvania Ave to the harbor would remain, there would just be a lowered bridge built in its stead, instead of a giant 6 lane bridge designed to handle thousands of cars a day, and designed with the intent of taking commuters from downtown to Racine and be yond to Chicago.
Tear down the Hoan!
Zach, I knew you wouldn’t answer my questions.
Either they would expose you for being a hypocrite, you have no idea how to answer them since your fellow left liberal anti-road buddies didn’t tell you how to, or answering them will make you look like an idiot if you do it on your own. You pick the one that fits!
Zach another question you to which you most likely will not answer, did you come up with the conspiracy thing after reading Capper’s post on it?
http://cognidissidence.blogspot.com/2009/12/real-tax-and-spenders.html
County Supervisor Pat Jursik has been reading too many books about conspiracy theories, and now sees them everywhere.
Milwaukee Politics, you seem to be uninformed and shooting from the hip.
“In any event the Hoan must be torn down, the parkway from Pennsylvania Ave to the harbor would remain, there would just be a lowered bridge built in its stead, instead of a giant 6 lane bridge designed to handle thousands of cars a day, and designed with the intent of taking commuters from downtown to Racine and be yond to Chicago.”
The Hoan bridge doesn’t take people to Racine and be yond to Chicago. That would be extending the park way to do that.
The Hoan bridge handles between 40-60,000 cars on average per day depending on whose numbers you go by not just thousands, but tens of thousands.
Just as those numbers to replace it after its 30 years of usefulness. Some have $800 million some have billions.
The renovated bridge would be expected to carry traffic for another 30 years before its superstructure, the concrete support piers and steel girders, need replacement. Projecting the cost of replacing the Hoan around 2050 is difficult, but the DOT put the figure at $800 million.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/54419507.html
IT MUST BE TORN DOWN – Don’t even want to wait for the studies.
If the metro Milwaukee came up with a novel idea that worked without mass transit, people would not laugh, but copy and implement it.
JeffN, I’m sure you’ll understand, but my blog is not the #1 priority in my life. If my responses to you aren’t quick enough for your liking, then that’s tough…just learn to deal with it.
To answer your question about capper, I do read his blog, but I write about what I think is interesting, and in case you haven’t been paying attention, I’ve been writing about the Hoan Bridge and Supervisor Jursik for months.
As to your comments that I’m either a hypocrite or an idiot, I’ll just say that when you’re ready to have an adult conversation free from name calling and insults, I’ll be happy to re-engage you. Until then, happy reading!
Jeff YOU are the one who is uninformed, the Hoan bridge was built as part of the failed Lake Freeway, which would have gone from Milwaukee to Racine and Chicago, that is why it is a 6 lane freeway, I was saying it is woefully underused.
The Parkway (WIS-794) that starts at carferry drive and ends at Pennsylvania Ave was only completed in 1999, after Carferery drive is here I-794 begins, and is the large 6 lane highway commonly known as the “Hoan Bridge”.
Also I was advocating tearing down the bridge, it appears your reading skills need to be refined.
MP, trying to reason with Jeff is pointless, because nothing you say will make a dent. He’s going to believe what he wants, regardless of what you write, which seems to be par for the course from the folks at Right View Wisconsin.
Milwaukee Politics –
“In any event the Hoan must be torn down, the parkway from Pennsylvania Ave to the harbor would remain, there would just be a lowered bridge built in its stead, instead of a giant 6 lane bridge designed to handle thousands of cars a day, and designed with the intent of taking commuters from downtown to Racine and be yond to Chicago.”
First, if you learned how to write I would be able to read what you have. Try cutting up your thoughts into smaller sentences to make it clear.
794 was looked at to just go through Milwaukee County as a way to get around Milwaukee better and faster.
You do know what the three-digit 794 references right?
From my friend Randy
East – West (I-94) Interstate highways are even numbers while North – South are odd numbers (I-55) for the most part.
If the Interstate is three digits and is even (I-894) means it is a bi-pass the travels around city while three digits that are odd (I-794) are a bi-pass that travels through the major city.
http://blogs.whitefishbaynow.com/way_i_see_it/archive/2008/02/18/tricks-amp-tips.aspx
Show us proof (website stating that)that it was to go to Racine and beyond to Chicago and again it would even if that was the case, been tens of thousands of cars not the “handle thousands of cars a day” you deem the freeway down to.
Enter the freeway era and in 1963, the Daniel Hoan (then called the Milwaukee Harbor) Bridge was officially added to the new Milwaukee freeway system and the Lake Freeway from downtown at the Park Freeway (East) southerly to Layton Ave, using the Hoan, was officially added to the planning maps in 1967. A future extension of the Lake Freeway south of Layton Ave through Racine and Kenosha Counties to the Illinois state line and a connection with a lakeshore freeway there were also proposed at the time. From the south end of the Hoan Bridge, the Lake Freeway was to have followed the Chicago & North Western (now Union Pacific) Railroad.
http://www.wisconsinhighways.org/milwaukee/lake.html
http://www.wisconsinhighways.org/milwaukee/eastwest.html