I’ve heard a lot of conservatives talk about how Wisconsin’s citizens need more guns, as if our state’s lack of concealed carry laws have made our citizens somehow unsafe. “More guns” seems to be a common mantra among conservatives, but their rationale that more guns equals less crime simply doesn’t hold water if one takes a look at crime statistics.
For example, let’s compare crime rates per 100,000 inhabitants (2006) for Wisconsin as well as Florida and Texas, both of which allow residents to carry firearms:
- Wisconsin:
- Robbery – 100.2
- Forcible Rape – 20.4
- Murder – 3.0
- Burglary – 485.8
- Vehicle Theft – 226.6
- Texas:
- Robbery – 158.5
- Forcible Rape – 35.6
- Murder – 5.9
- Burglary – 917.3
- Vehicle Theft – 405.9
- Florida:
- Robbery – 188.8
- Forcible Rape – 35.8
- Murder – 6.2
- Burglary – 944.6
- Vehicle Theft – 422.5
One look at the statistics and it’s obvious Wisconsin has much lower crime rates than states like Texas and Florida. Unless there’s something I’m missing, I’m not exactly sure why Wisconsin needs citizens roaming the streets packing heat, considering how safe our streets are when compared to other states.
Edit: In response to a comment asking for data for states closer geographically to Wisconsin, here’s some data for Minnesota and Michigan:
And since you asked for it, here’s the crime rates per 100,000 residents (2006) for Minnesota and Michigan:
- Minnesota:
- Robbery – 105.1
- Forcible Rape – 31.8
- Murder – 2.4
- Burglary – 583.9
- Vehicle Theft – 258.9
- Michigan:
- Robbery – 140.7
- Forcible Rape – 52.2
- Murder – 7.1
- Burglary – 753.9
- Vehicle Theft – 495.4
One look at the statistics for Minnesota and Michigan show they both have higher rates per 100,000 residents for Robbery, Forcible Rape, Burglary, and Vehicle Theft, and Michigan has a higher Murder rate while Minnesota’s Murder rate is slightly lower than Wisconsin’s. It doesn’t appear concealed carry laws have made for lower crime rates and increased safety in either state.
Well, Zach, there are other issues involved so comparing Wisconsin, Florida, and Texas just by the numbers isn’t exactly giving the whole story. Just like comparing Wisconsin to Idaho or Montana wouldn’t be telling the whole story.
The truth of the matter is everyone should be allowed to have an opportunity to defend their life if being threatened. I wonder if you ever felt that sinking feeling that something is going to happen to you and that you might not make it out alive?? I have and when I saw my husband’s gun in the door of our car I had no problem positioning myself next to it…just in case. Every citizen in this country should have that same right.
Population of Texas: 23,507,783
Florida: 18,089,888
Wisconsin: 5,556,506
Gee Zach seeing as that Florida has 3x the number of Residents and Texas has ALMOST 4.5x the number of residents as Wisconsin, NATURALLY Wisconsin would have lower crime stats.
Next time try comparing stats of states COMPARABLE to Wisconsin.–which I would define as 1.5 million either way–
Like Minnesota, (5,167,101), Indiana (6,313,520) Washington (6,395,798),
Michael, perhaps you missed the part about the statistics being per 100,000 residents. That negates your entire argument about the population of each state.
And in absolute numbers that means even more crime in those two states than Wisconsin.
The point is that guns add nothing to a culture of civility that we should all be looking to have. This idea that we need a gun handy belies the idea that we have civilization going on i this country.
This argument that people should be allowed to defend themselves only feeds into a fantasy.
Where is the civilization?
Is it the civilization on 13th and Atkinson that beats a man because he was driving a car that hit a child who foolishly ran into the street? Is he not allowed to defend himself?
Is it the civilization that robs pizza deliverymen trying to better their situation in life? Are they not allowed to defend themselves?
See, the problem is, there can be no self-defense without proactive steps to be ready to defend oneself.
Or should people take debate classes in order to reason people out of violence?
What are the crime [i]trends[/i] in Wisconsin versus Texas and Florida?
Why not compare states in the same region as Wisconsin?
Michigan and Minnesota have concealed carry; Illinois does not. Let’s see the numbers for those offenses.
Prosqtor, you must have read a different news story than I, because the story I read made it pretty clear the driver that hit that child wasn’t beaten; he simply hid in the bushes because a crowd started to gather. Nice try though.
Here’s a link in case you’d like to read again.
And since you asked for it, here’s the crime rates per 100,000 residents (2006) for Minnesota and Michigan:
Minnesota:- Robbery – 105.1
- Forcible Rape – 31.8
- Murder – 2.4
- Burglary – 583.9
- Vehicle Theft – 258.9
Michigan:- Robbery – 140.7
- Forcible Rape – 52.2
- Murder – 7.1
- Burglary – 753.9
- Vehicle Theft – 495.4
One look at the statistics for Minnesota and Michigan show they both have higher rates per 100,000 residents for Robbery, Forcible Rape, Burglary, and Vehicle Theft, and Michigan has a higher Murder rate while Minnesota’s Murder rate is slightly lower than Wisconsin’s. It doesn’t appear concealed carry laws have made for lower crime rates and increased safety in either state.
Where are you getting these numbers from Zach?
Oh, nevermind, found the link…
I always find it weird that they use the term “Forcible Rape”. As if Rape can be anything else…
Zack, Zack, Zack, Great topic! Poor execution! So, you don’t like the idea of being able to defend yourself and your family with a concealed weapon, that’s fine! Good luck!
Please try to find some data that makes sense when trying to state an argument. You have thrown out crime statistics, which I assume are true, BUT WHAT DO THEY HAVE TO DO WITH GUNS? Nothing! Tell us about gun crimes. Tell us about Gun crime statistics in a state before and after a carry law has gone into effect and compared to another similar state during the same period which did not have a “carry” law. Don’t throw in Florida and Texas with their problems with illegal immigrants, drug trafficking, etc. Tell us statistics that can hold water with someone with an IQ above 50.
Yes, I will be back with some proper statistics for you soon, after I have taken the proper amount of time to present you with proper, accurate and relevant information.
RAE . . . Your comment is correct, RAPE is RAPE, NO means NO, and that must be respected.
Jeff, the point I was illustrating – and that you seem to have missed completely – is that concealed carry laws don’t make folks any safer, if one uses crime statistics as a measure of how safe a community – or in this case a state – is. You’ve asked for gun crime statistics, but I’d note we’re not talking about crimes committed with guns – we’re talking about concealed carry laws resulting in lower crime rates, especially for crimes that I’ve seen some conservatives argue would be reduced if folks here in Wisconsin were allowed to pack heat.
Zack, here is better information regarding crime in Texas. I have chosen years leading up to and following Texas passing a Concealed Handgun Licensing (CHL) law. These are general crimes as you had posted, however these are at least during the times before and after the CHL law. You will see that the enactment of the CHL law did not fulfill the typical “blood in the streets” predictions.
Please look at the following document from the Texas Department of Public Safety:
http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/docs/cr1999/Crime%20in%20Texas%20CH%202.pdf
(ALL RATES ARE crimes per 100,000)
Year Murder Rape Robbery Agg. Assault Burglary
1990 14.1 51.5 260.9 435.0 1851.5
1991 15.3 53.4 286.5 484.7 1802.3
1992 12.7 53.4 252.5 487.7 1523.0
1993 11.9 55.0 224.4 470.8 1297.5
1994 11.0 49.5 204.8 441.2 1168.2
1995 9.0 45.5 179.8 429.3 1082.2
1996 7.7 43.8 171.5 421.2 1068.3
1997 6.8 41.2 157.0 397.3 1033.8
1998 6.8 40.1 145.1 372.7 986.2
1999 6.1 38.1 146.8 370.0 949.6
Now check out these dates while referring back to the above information.
Concealed Handgun Licensing (CHL) History in Texas:
1993 – Governor Ann Richards vetoed a statewide referendum on CHL, saying that “the people of Texas didn’t need to vote on something like CHL”
1995 – Then Governor George W. Bush (not my favorite guy) signed the Texas concealed carry bill. Effective January 1, 1996.
1997 – Texas revised their CHL to correct a loophole creating a conflict between concealed carry rules and alcoholic beverage license regulations
It doesn’t look like there was a sudden crime wave now does it? What about the “blood in the streets” predictions!
More Statistics:
From the Texas Department of Public Safety:
Regulatory Licensing Service – Concealed Handgun Licensing Bureau – Demographic Reports for Fiscal Year 2007 (Sept. 1, 2006 – Aug. 31, 2007)
CHL Applications Issued was 90,867 while 392 were denied.
CHL Licenses Suspended was 483 and 422 ended up revoked.
Total Convictions in Texas for the year 2006:
61,539 = Total Convictions
140 (0.2275%) = Convections of Holders of a Concealed Handgun License (CHL)
As of May 2008 there were 296,554 active CHL licenses issued.
Texas has a 2008 population of approximately 24,000,000.
That indicates that about 1.25% of the total population (including children, felons and indigent) have an active CHL while only .2275% of ALL convictions were to people who have a CHL license.
Looking closer to the crime reports for Fiscal Year 2007 (Sept. 1, 2006 – Aug. 31, 2007). From my count 43 (number not percent) convictions of persons with a CHL license involved a firearm, 33 of these appear to be related to not caring the actual license, the holder or an unlicensed gun. That leaves 10 convictions in TEXAS where a gun is in the description of the crime committed.
There are 10 – 20 more that may have had a gun involved but not stated i.e. “prohibited weapon, switchblade/knuckles” was one person, “murder” there was 1 with a CHL but no category for murder with gun or knife or poison etc. The biggest was “AGG(ravated) Assault W/Deadly Weapon” there were 9 with a CHL out of 2,701 (0.3332%) convictions in the state. This one did not break down by types of weapons (guns, knives, etc), but you can add all nine to the 10 above if you like. That leaves us with potentially 19, we can call it 25 to make some people happy. So there were 25 convictions of CHL licensees where a gun was involved, but not related to licensing, out of 61,539 total convictions or 0.04 % (0.0004) of all convictions!
ENOUGH WITH THE NUMBERS NOW LETS USE OUR BRAINS! Lets pretend you are a bad guy and you are planning to rob a convince store. Would you rather robe a convince store where one of the patrons may have a concealed weapon or one where you know that no one will? Now be honest! Or be a fool! What if it was a restaurant and you were hell-bent on simply killing people! If someone there had a gun would it make a difference? It may not change the action, but it is certainly likely to change the result. Just ask Suzanna Gratia Hupp. Here is the actual story from Killeen Texas!
On October 16, 1991, Hennard drove his 1987 Ford Ranger pickup truck through the front window of a Luby’s Cafeteria at 1705 East Central Texas Expressway in Killeen, yelled “This is what Bell County has done to me!”, then opened fire on the restaurant’s patrons and staff with a Glock 17 pistol and later a Ruger P89. About 80 people were in the restaurant at the time. He stalked, shot, and killed 23 people and wounded another 20 before committing suicide. During the shooting, he approached Suzanna Gratia Hupp and her parents. Hupp had actually brought a handgun to the Luby’s Cafeteria that day, but had left it in her vehicle due to the laws in force at the time, forbidding citizens from carrying firearms. According to her later testimony in favor of Missouri’s HB-1720 bill and in general, after she realized that her firearm was not in her purse, but “a hundred feet away in [her] car”, her father charged at Hennard in an attempt to subdue him, only to be gunned down; a short time later, her mother was also shot and killed. (Hupp later expressed regret for abiding by the law in question by leaving her firearm in her car, rather than keeping it on her person.) One patron, Tommy Vaughn, threw himself through a plate-glass window to allow others to escape. Hennard allowed a mother and her four-year-old child to leave. He reloaded several times and still had ammunition remaining when he committed suicide by shooting himself in the head after being cornered and wounded by police”
Zack, if she had been permitted and had her gun WITH HER not in the car that day, many peoples lives may have been spared including her own parents. Today with approximately 1.25% of Texas residents with active permits there is a reasonable chance that at least one person there may have had a gun and been able to stop Hennard’s exicution style slayings.
My Father was a resident of Texas durring this time and did not want to end up in the same perdiciment as Suzanna Gratia Hupp and knew that, in a similar situation, he would have to take some kind of action like her father. He got his CHL shortly after they became available.
On a side note: If you have guns yourself LOCK THEM UP! As far as I know many police departments still have FREE, yes FREE, cable locks for guns. Just go in and ask. Zack, as you know I have two young childern, we have talked about guns. If a friend shows them a gun they are to get away and tell a parent. They know that guns are not toys, but what about their friends? I have gunlocks on all guns and they are in a gun safe as well. I am a hunter, but no, I don’t have a BUNCH of guns! I bought the safe to store them away from little hands and to store valuable documents as well. Be smart and protect your children – lock up your guns.
Back to your post: I’ll get back to you later with FACTS from Michigan!
Sorry, I couldn’t find any preview when posting and the info is now a little smashed!
Jeff, I still think you’re missing my point, which is to say that concealed carries aren’t a magic “cure all” that make our communities so much safer. Despite having concealed carry laws, states like Texas, Florida, Michigan, and Minnesota still have higher crime rates than Wisconsin.
Now don’t get me wrong – I’m not opposed to folks owning guns; in fact I support the second amendment. However, I do believe in responsible limits on how, why, and where folks should be able to carry and use those guns.
“Now don’t get me wrong – I’m not opposed to folks owning guns; in fact I support the second amendment. However, I do believe in responsible limits on how, why, and where folks should be able to carry and use those guns.”
I think we can all agree (hopefully) on that, Zach. CCW should only be for those who are responsible and law abiding.
The average male Texan who is 21 years or older is 7.7 times more likely to be arrested for the violent crimes of murder, rape, robbery, and assault than the average male CHL holder.