87 thoughts on “Our first open thread in a good long time…”

    1. It doesn’t matter what any of these folks say, because they’re not lawyers or judges. I’d rather take the word of folks who are trained to understand the law, as opposed to the word of a partisan hack like Mike Huebsch.

  3. 10,000 buttons. We’ve made and given away 10,000 buttons and we’d like to do more. If you need recall buttons for particular senators, or Kloppenburg buttons, or you just really want one that says “we fish through ice” let me know. I’m on facebook and twitter (Ann Maria Bell and annmariabell) or a leave a comment here and I’ll figure out how to get some to you.

    1. Should have been more clear about the buttons: located in Madison WI but particularly interested in getting them out to other parts of the state and willing to mail them; all labor donated by members of Arboretum Cohousing; supplies paid for by small individual contributions. We’re the folks who have been handing out buttons at events in Madison with the buckets/cape/banner.

    1. LOL….you must have been living under a rock for the last 25+ years if you think Wisconsin is a true red state.

    3. I’ve been all over Wisconsin, and while there are certainly pockets that are very conservative, I don’t think the state is nearly as conservative as you’d have us believe, and that’s a fact that’s borne out by electoral results.

      1. I did take a look at Presidential and Governor elections since 1950

        1952 Republican 60% of the vote
        1956 Republican 61%
        1960 Republican 51%
        1964 Democrat 62%
        1968 Republican 47%
        1972 Republican 53%
        1976 Democrat 49%
        1980 Republican 47%
        1984 Republican 54%
        1988 Democrat 51%
        1992 Democrat 41%
        1896 Democrat 48%
        2000 Democrat 47%
        2004 Democrat 49%
        2008 Democrat 56%

        In the same time period there has been 8 Republican governors and 6 Democratic

        1. Thanks for proving that Wisconsin is not a “true red state.”

          Despite your assertion Wisconsin is a “true red state,” let’s look at a few more elected offices.

          • Wisconsin’s Class 1 U.S. Senate seat has been held by Democrats since 1957 (Sen. Proxmire, Sen. Kohl).
          • Since 1979, the Wisconsin Secretary of State has been a Democrat (La Follette, Vel R. Phillips).

        2. Seems purple to me, NotaLib – not red. I’m sorry, but no matter how you spin it, it seems like a constant push and pull between the two in Wisconsin if you check all the data.

          If you go further back and say Wisconsin was a ‘red’ state — I have news to tell you. A portion of the Republicans used to be the Liberals in the United States before the 1920s due to the Progressive Movement. Doesn’t that sound similar to the Democrats now? The Blue Dog Democrats and the Liberals?

          The power only shifted because of Calvin Coolidge’s conservative staff, as with Herbert Hoover who found out little too late that there was nothing that could get them out of the recession they slammed into due to the irresponsibility in the 1920s. The politics in America was turned only turned it’s head by FDR and eventually — set into stone and place by McCarthyism. However, the Republicans remained a semi-voice and pragmatic nature up until the Reaganomics and eventually Bush.

        3. notalib….you said Pres. and Gov. races…but your dates are only in 4 year increments…so where’s the Gov races?

    1. Texas is trying to establish its very own death panel by removing funding for AIDs/HIV medications…

      1. Don’t forget about the death panels Republican governor Jan Brewer of Arizona set up last year when she decided to cut funding for folks receiving medical assistance through the state of Arizona.

  8. Here’s my open thread commentary.

    I absolutely despise both the DPW and WISGOP. State politics has become so toxic it’s repulsive. It’s bad enough we have to deal with being bombarded by slimy and dishonest ads in October and November. Now, it’s everywhere, all the time, wasting millions and millions of dollars. The biggest losers in all the recall efforts are the people of the state who ultimately foot the bill.

    Doyle was a corrupt, win-at-all-costs governor. The state Republicans responded in-kind (all though incompetently). Doyle quit rather than get his comeuppance, so the voters took out their frustration on his closest proxy, Tom Barret instead. Walker took it as a mandate and over-reached. Dems took obstructionism to new heights, actually fleeing the state. Everybody is trying to recall everyone else.

    Screw them all. If we had a legitimate vote of no confidence option, I believe I would do so for pretty much ever state office. I honestly believe the public would be better served if every single sitting elected official were removed and we started from scratch with nothing but political newbies.

    1. “I absolutely despise both the DPW.”

      There you go demonizing public employees again…just kidding Locke…good to see you!

      1. You to, Ed.

        Well I’m not particularly happen with my snow plow driver 🙂 but not quite the DPW I had in mind.

        I’ve always had a passion for politics and public policy and discussion – even disagreement thereof.

        But I’m really getting pretty burned out. At least on the state level, there are simply so few people to actually like. Picking a side or person by default, not because of who they are, but who they are not is no way to operate.

      1. I have neither the time, nor energy to rehash that all over again. Though I’m curious – I seem to recall you being quite critical of him in the past, refusing to defend him. Has something changed? Absence make the heart grow fonder?

        1. There’s a difference between being critical and calling someone corrupt. Yes, I’ve been critical, and I’m still no fan of his, but I have yet to hear anyone give a rational and factually-based explanation for why he’s corrupt and a criminal, as so many on the right have asserted.

          1. I think he means the whole transferring of funds to balance the the State Budget – but that’s a problem that Tommy Thompson did and Scott Walker is planning to do too. That is one thing I didn’t approve of.

    3. I honestly believe the public would be better served if every single sitting elected official were removed and we started from scratch with nothing but political newbies.

      This is one thing I agree with you on. I would get rip apart of the Republican and Democratic Party, and allow the rest of the parties get their shot at it, while those two monoliths would be out of the picture. No donations. No exceptions. All debates, we hear them out on television, radio, and they travel to meet people on their own. Not just two against each other, but multiple people against each other.

      However, that’s just a dream of mine. I realize that’s never going to happen and it’s likely going to get worse before it gets any better. If it gets any better.

  9. Actually, all the settlements have different situations and political standpoints. While they are conservative, it’s more in a “Leave us alone, stop taxing us because we still have to get by, let us keep our guns, and stay out of our lives” compared to areas in the Milwaukee Suburbs. I’ve been actually making a graph of the districts by settlement and it’s absolutely fascinating to see the different ranges, way people vote, and so on. You would personally be surprised how blue some areas are in the Fox Cities and Green Bay Metropolitan area.

    I never saw Wisconsin as a red state or a blue state – I’m not sure where to put it down to be exact. It is a true swing state regardless of how you look at it. All the settlements, outside of Milwaukee, it’s conservative suburbs, and Madison — the rest of the state has a chance of going either way. I believe it’s because for the most part – we are pragmatic. Compared to other states, which become pure red or pure blue regardless of circumstances, in a stereotypical “rural areas are red” and “urban areas are blue” — it’s more like, Wisconsin is in an ocean of purple with blue and red spots, where it’s usually in other states a sea of red with blue spots.

  10. Gas prices are skyrocketing + military intervention in Lybia. Where is the “no blood for oil” crowd? Those missile strikes killed civilians, including Lybian children. Where are the protestors saying Obama has blood on his hands and calling him a tryant? Guantanamo still open, yet no one calls Obama a terrorist and war criminal. I hardly see the media covering, much less constantly discussing this topic.

    This proves to me that many of those people “against the war” before were merely disingenous Bush haters and nothing more.

    1. Um… There has been plenty of criticism about Libya in general from the left and I think it’s more solid than the bullshit from the right who are now only against the war because Obama is the one in charge when they were drooling and cheering the whole time to every right winged decision. I think it’s more hypocritical of the right to be criticizing Obama when they supported the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan then turning around to attack him. I myself am conflicted on it, I don’t like getting into wars but are you saying it was better for us to watch the people in Libya all protesting get slaughtered by that lunatic?

      Seriously. Take a point and stand with it. I actually supported Bush early on with Afghanistan War and Iraq War, it was just really poorly handled beyond belief with us jumping into two wars and lowering taxes like idiots with a “Me! Me! Me!” entitled mentality, while our soldiers went to war over there, got cheered on, came back, then never got the help they needed or were sent back when they were in unsound condition. We went in for the wrong reasons. While human rights violations existed in both Iraq and Afghanistan before the invasion; however, human rights violations were not our primary reasons for invading. Everyone knows that and no matter how much you try to see it from some different perspective – it’s true. The thing is, it sounded like Gaddafi was threatening to kill everyone. We aren’t obligated to protect people under assault, but under international law does require intervention in the event of genocide. Am I a professional to say what is genocide or not? Absolutely not, I’m not sure what is the line between human rights violation and genocide. The point is Gaddafi was going in acting like he was going to kill everyone.

      Furthermore, the Libyans have asked the United Nations to come there for about three weeks. That is a key difference between these three different situations. I’m not saying this is the best answer, but I’m just happy that many more women, children, and men are not being massacred in the street as Gaddafi was planning to do in the first place. I won’t even get into the whole thing that Gaddafi actually is taking bodies out from the morgue that his forces killed and blaming them on the missiles themselves. It’s like how they’re saying that woman who was raped sixteen times is now a whore, drunk, and delusional. I’ve read from sources, twitters, news that isn’t the American biased of pieces of shit on all angles and is actually unbiased and reporting facts that Gaddafi’s forces is placing a lot of bodies there that they killed themselves. Do I think that the missiles are doing damage? Absolutely. They’re killing people, they’re destroying the infrastructure and it makes me feel really uneasy because when the western world leaves we are going to leave a huge power void like we always historically have done. That is why we are staying in Iraq and Afghanistan as long as we are, but the issues are all complex and we can’t just pull out now as much as I want us to.

      Seriously. Really?

      1. T., I never said *I* was criticizing Obama or attacking him for these actions, although I do think his decisions have been muddled.

        My point is where are the folks who organized rallies all over American cities and cried “no blood for oil!” back in 2003, and until 2009??? They are the ones not being consistent. Where are the conspriacy theories that Obama wants to invade Lybia for their oil? Or the pictures they held up of dead children, struck by stray missles? Or the constant drumbeats about torture at Guantanamo. You KNOW if Bush was launching bombs in Lybia at the same time gas prices jump over $3, they would be saying that Bush just wants to make his oil buddies richer. And throw in a comment about Haliburton too.

        So my question boils down to, where is the outrage from the left as Obama is doing some of the same things Bush had to do?

        1. Or the constant drumbeats about torture at Guantanamo.

          I don’t know what you’re talking about, forgot. Quantanamo has been closed.

        2. You don’t hear the outrage because they aren’t the majority and the Democrats actually supported Bush. Just look at the Patriot Act and how it passed early on, all of us in the US at the time were pissed at what happened, horrified, so we jumped in without thinking and got us into a giant clusterfuck — only realizing the issue after it was said and done. Just look how the democrats are a large freaking chunk in voting for the wars in the first place and many times afterward. The democrats had a majority since 2006 and they still didn’t get us out. This means it’s not as damn black and white as it seems. Basically Republicans are dogs that eat their own shit in a giant pack and getting Democrats are like herding cats.

          I do think it’s partially about oil – that’s why we ignore other terrible things happening in the world. But I don’t think it completely is, like it is with George W. Bush. This partially human rights, if it was about oil we would let Gaddafi slaughter them all because the longer he is a dictator the more we can gain from him because he is reliable and we would be afraid of the revolution – exactly as we were afraid of the one in Egypt.

          And my answer boils down to: A lot of us democrats fucking support the wars but hate the reasons why we went in.

          1. “the Democrats actually supported Bush.” What country were you living in in the 2000s?!

            1. They may have put up a good hawing but look at the damn votes. If they truly didn’t support him, we would have been out of the war, we would have impeached him, so there was a huge group against him but the group was larger because half the democrats were always for him.

              I know where the hell I was. I was watching George W. Bush putting us in the worst deficit, I was losing faith in the Republican Party when I was still following it, I was looking at the Tea Party forming in 2007, smiling at it at the thought that there was hope for the Republican Party after all, and I was rooting for Ron Paul to become President. That is where I was.

            2. If you’re not getting my point:

              The left as in the people were against Bush, you sure as all hell didn’t see that in Washington D.C.

              Now do you get it?

    2. I don’t recall the United State government/military seizing control of Libya’s oil production infrastructure, nor do I recall the United States government sending over 100,000 soldiers into Libya.

      Did that happen sometime this weekend and I just wasn’t paying attention?

      1. Yeah and I’m sure the lefty protestors would have remained silent or supported Bush if he had done the exact same thing that Obama is doing now in Lybia NO WAY! They would have said Bush was trying to sieze oil and be a war monger and invade the country. Double standard and you know it. That’s why they don’t make a peep about Guantanamo and the media doesn’t call out Obama on that hyprocisy.

        1. There was a protest against US involvement in Libya in downtown Chicago on March 18th…of course it didn’t make the local papers who can’t publish news from outside the state apparently.

        2. Holy shit, you are seriously …

          Did you check what Locke, Zach, and I have been saying? You’re the one selectively choosing to see things honestly. Look, I know you live in the southeastern Wisconsin which is pretty much Wingnuttia to contrast with the hippies in Madison, but wake up and look at the actual facts.

          You’re grasping at straws and to put a cookie cutter situation on Libya to compare it to Iraq and Afghanistan is disgusting. They’re fundamentally different, all of them actually — the reason why we are failing Iraq and Afghanistan is because we treated them the same. We can’t just give a one size fits all situation to these complex situations.

          The right wingers for the first couple weeks when Libya was being attacked were crying that Obama wasn’t doing enough and was a coward for not helping, now the same right wingers are whining like you saying that “Oh if it was Bush they would have been attacking and accusing him.” And you know what? Nobody attacked Bush at first, except maybe the extremely aware people in politics – which I know I wasn’t at the time. We only got the hint when they decided to seize control of the oil production. Tell everyone after that tragedy – we’re angry, we were horrified, which is why many people jumped at the call regardless of political beliefs. My friends, my family, many people I know jumped at the call – came back dead, injured, or traumatized. I jumped at the call, but I didn’t qualify because of health issues. My family in fact wanted war bonds so we could support our troops, where I’ve talked to conservatives who cried like little babies saying it was such a damn strain on their pocket and while the majority of the right winged privileged selfish bastards would cry about how they didn’t get enough. And that we were doing enough for our soldiers, and they should just be like REAL soldiers and not accept ANY help.

          Hell no we’re not doing enough for our soldiers.

          When the invasion began in October 2001, polls indicated that about 88% of Americans backed military action in Afghanistan The reason we got pissed is because we jumped into Iraq for what seemed to be no apparent reason, which we gave the benefit of a doubt only to to find out they lied to us. That is why by 2005, the damn opinion of America in the Iraq War faded and why we’re so mad now.

          But oh dear, I guess the conservatives and the spineless democrats that voted with them aren’t at fault, ever. Lying to why we went into there for saying they Weapons of Mass Destruction, and having the wrong priorities.

          The damn facts are:

          1.) If we leave now immediately, there will be a huge void of power so someone worse can take over. So we got to help rebuild the infrastructure and make sure it gets a stable government.
          2.) Haters are going to hate, and the Iraqi and Afghanistan people are going hate us as long as we’re in that country because no country enjoys being held hostage.

          I know for a fact many of you right wingnuts could care less about the people there that are being killed, you’re just using it as a talking point. That’s why you spend all that time demonizing muslims then spin it around when Obama is now the president in the case of Libya.

          If you cannot tell the difference from the opinion of liberals and the opinions of democrats in power, and the opinions of conservatives and republicans in power — guess what? You’re extremely daft. We were under the belief that we went in there for justice, to set things right, as naive as it was. By 2005 with Iraq — we were proven otherwise.

          You are hypocrisy at best.

          1. The whole so called anti war movement the far left gave us during the bush years was all BS. They were only protesting because of their dislike for Bush, they did not give a rats ass about the people. The left wing media are just as hypocritical as the leftwing anti war crowd, they could not cover the protest fast enough, but now they are not questioning the lack of leftwing protest at all, simple reason Obama gets a free pass again and just like the protesters their only concern was their dislike for Bush.

            The real difference between Bush and Obama is that Obama has no clue what he is doing in fighting wars and is only starting them because he was pressured into it.

            1. Please, there still pissed at Obama for not getting us out. You just don’t hear it from your corporate media, which is why we’re constantly frustrated. We try protests against it but we never get in the news because we’re pushed aside for what is going on with Charlie Sheen or whatever is going on in the entertainment industry at the time.

              I could bring up articles that are constantly criticizing it still. Like this, this, and this. There are countless more where those came from, but there is certainly a lot of criticism on the left — you just never hear the left in the news because they often don’t suck off big corporations. The reason you heard it with George W. Bush is because they wanted to demonize the left — trust me the anti-war movement is still going on alive and well, we’re just no longer getting air time because the Democrats who are under the corporations thumbs don’t want that.

              George W. Bush was incompetent and you know it, he spent us into this deficit and you only seemed to start caring when someone came into office that you disagreed with and now blame it completely on him. I don’t support Obama by all means, I am in fact pissed at many things he does — but to think that George W. Bush was such a perfect saint just shows how detached from reality you are.

              Then again, I’m not surprised. You never actually spout facts like the rest of the conservatives here.

  11. There is no comparison between Libya and Iraq and Locke and Forgot know it, and Cindy Sheehan and many others have been publicly calling Obama a war criminal for almost two years. Dennis Kucinich has said perhaps Obama should be impeached over the Libya matter.

    And everyone, Forgotmyscreename, including Bush himself, knows that he didn’t “have to” invade Iraq. That has to be the densest thing I’ve ever read from you on this blog.

    1. There is no comparison between Libya and Iraq and Locke and Forgot know it

      You know what Steve – I’m done with you. Once again, you simply make up shit. I made absolutely no comment having anything to do with Libya or comparing it to Iraq. I don’t mind – in fact I enjoy discussion with people whom I disagree with. I refuse to engage with people who are repeatedly dishonest.

  13. Iraq and Libya are very similar…two tribal Arab nations that have artificially drawn post colonial national boundaries who both have oil and over the years have been ruled by despots who oppress and have no problem killing their own people…and we did in fact institute a no fly zone in Iraq when Hussein was killing Kurds.

    1. With all due respect Ed, there’s absolutely nothing similar about the American treatment of the two countries, which is what I was referring to.

      The Bush family wars against Iraq span two decades, two Bush presidents, and a citizen death toll that almost certainly exceeds a million people during that period. Some would say two million. And the number of refugees, widows, orphans, and the wounded and maimed, likely numbers in the many millions.

      George W. Bush’s war on Iraq is the single greatest American made humanitarian disaster of the 21st century to date. It is a blot on this nations history, a large and bloody blot, and there isn’t a civilized nation in the world that doesn’t know it.

      In this respect, there’s precious little similar between Libya and Iraq.

      For the record, I have been out opposing Obama’s Afghanistan policy since the day he took office. I personally led a contingent of 15 to 20 people a month, in a coordinated national citizen lobbying effort, to Dave Obey’s Superior office to pressure him to vote against continued supplemental war funding for the Afghanistan war.

      Congressman Obey did just that in the summer of 2010.

      1. Pres. Obama’s continued waging of the war in Afghanistan shouldn’t have come as a surprise to anyone…he was supportive of it throughout the campaign. Although a critic of the Iraq war, he has never presented himself as a pacifist.

  14. Since this an open thread I just thought i would share this with all of you, speaks volumes as to where unions and the whole democratic party is going ..

    “I have to tell you,” says Communist Party USA Vice Chair Scott Marshall in an online video, “that in every one of the situations that I’ve been in in Madison and Indianapolis, there is a radicalization going on among Democratic legislators that I‘ve never seen in my lifetime and I don’t think any of us have.We have to work with them and we have to see the possibility that a lot of these Democrats are going to move toward more independent positions. And by independent I mean independent of the corporations, independent of the finance capital, and independent of the ruling class of this country.”

    What does it say about the Democratic Party if the Communist Party sees it as an ally?

    1. When the Dems actually start working with the Commies, get back to us. Stop spouting nonsense in the meantime.

    2. The Democratic Party doesn’t see the Communist Party as an ally, just because they have similar beliefs and goals doesn’t mean that they support each other. They have a common goal and are working together, if that’s not a surprising concept. Chances are, once this goal is done they will break off from each other again.

      It’s like how a lot of White Supremacists Groups support the Republican Party. They’re not necessarily affiliated, but they have common agreements.

      1. President Obama, as a presidential candidate in 2008, said he wanted to redistribute wealth — something compatible with the Communist party (not that I am calling Obama a communist). My point is that I provided a real world example of common agreement between some Democrats and Communists.

        T., what common agreements can you provide between white supremacists and the Republican party?

        1. Here’s one example.

          This is my favorite:

          Stormfront.org, the website he set up on his release from jail, is a hate-filled racist forum.

          Its Twitter account, and another neo-Nazi feed linked to it, are among 4,819 that Arizona State Senate Majority Leader Chuck Gray (top) follows. (See screenshots below.) Stormfront does not reciprocate, however—the group follows no one. Which means that Gray, or whoever is responsible for his Twitter account, sought out the racist organization specifically and decided its tweets were essential reading.

          Here’s James L. Hart, a Republican who ran for Congress in Tennessee.

          And let’s not forget Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour’s connections to the Council of Conservative Citizens.

          1. While there are some/most liberals who want to redistribute wealth and support other socialist-trending policies, I don’t think you will find any Republicans who want to do the same.

            However, while the Republican party platform has no racist connections, you find a few examples of individuals. However valid these may or may not be, you can also find individual examples of racism from Democrats. Case in point: Barack Obama’s long-time friendship and connection to Jeremiah Wright. Jesse Jackson has also made several racist remarks, including anti-semitism, which is also shared by Al Sharpton.

            So does that mean the Democrat party has any more “common agreements” to racism than the Republican party?

  16. Hey Zach, this is something interesting I’ve found out from here in my neck of the woods:

    Dishonest Recall petitioners.

    I’ve also heard it from my cousin that goes to UW-Green Bay that this is true. From what I know, the petitioners all have to sign at the bottom affirming that everyone did indeed know what they were signing when they signed it under penalty of law. Here is it precisely:

    I know that each person signed the paper with full knowledge of its content….I am aware that falsifying this certification is punishable under 12.13(3)(a) Wis. Stats.

    1. I’m not one bit shocked by that.

      Have you heard the story about the bar owner in Kenosha County who offered free drinks to patrons who agreed to sign a petition to recall Bob Wirch? Apparently there’s video of it…hopefully I’ll be able to get my hands on it.

      1. I’ve vaguely heard of it, but I’ve been hearing from my family members and friends that go to UW-Green Bay that there were a lot of these cases. I’m not surprised this is going on around the whole state. I know for a fact they’re really focusing on Dave Hansen and Bob Wirch in particular.

        Mind you, some people signed because they wanted to, but a lot of students are often in a hurry or don’t want to be bothered, so some will do whatever it takes to get people off their back. Furthermore, the comments like this?

        “I encountered these very people. I said I’m not registered to vote here (which I’m, not), the person said it didn’t matter.”

        This is … not surprising. But I’ve heard the people who are recalling the Republicans have turned down individuals who were under the belief that they were recalling the Democrats – only to politely tell them that this was recalling the Republicans and that they couldn’t do it because they were in the wrong district.

        I hope you can find the video soon, because that is especially sleazy.

  17. Sounds like just one more lie from the far left extremist. I know when I was asked I was told what I was going to be signing, also just shows you how stupid students are signing something they know nothing about. But its UWGB no one ever accused anyone out there of being to bright

  18. no they were outside of the WI DOT building in Green Bay. There were two of them and they were asking if people wanted to sign their recall petition I said I will only sign if its Dave Hansen and it was. I now carry one with me at all times have 4 sheets filled since last Thursday just asking people I talk to. Some sign some tell me where I can put the paper, don’t think it will fit.

    1. All right, then that is completely different from this situation either way in this came. Whether you went to seek out the WI DOT building yourself or they came to your home and explained who they were recalling, is different from what is going on here in UW-Green Bay where they deliberately didn’t tell anyone until some students started pressing the issues and asking who it was they were recalling.

      Now, if you want me to make my point is if the Recall Petitioners had a place set up in UW-Green Bay that said “Recall Democratic Senator Dave Hansen” much like how they were outside of the WI Dot Building in Green Bay. However my cousin and various friends said they were actually following students around and begging them to sign. Furthermore, they’re under the assumption that everyone who goes to UW-Green Bay is either registered to vote (or do not care according to some accounts) or if they live in Dave Hansen’s District when in reality they might actually be from Frank Lasee’s (District 1) or Robert Cowles’ (District 2). This is the key difference in the situation.

  19. I would love to have one from the other side approach me, I would be polite but I would have a lot of fun with them, especially if some no nothing college kid, they are so easy to play with

  20. The people at the DOT were in the parking lot, I was just bright enough to ask to make sure i know what I am sigining I don’t feel sorry fro anyone of those braindead college kids if they did not ask.

    1. I think you’re missing the basic point, NotaLib. The point is the mannerisms were completely different. What the people in front of the DOT building were doing was not wrong, it was their right and they were presenting themselves in a legal manner. What they’re doing in UW-Green Bay wasn’t.

      Let’s frame it like this: Say if hypothetically liberals went over to a home in the 2nd District, but the two people signing the pension thought they were signing Dave Hansen to be removed and weren’t told about that they were signing Robert Cowles. Would you call this right?

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