The smoldering remains of the Open Meetings Law and Article IV Section 10 of the Wisconsin Constitution, 130 years of case law, and any semblance of judicial and appellate procedure.
Besides that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
Looking at how everything went down last week with the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruling, I think some of the Republicans actually were not expecting that ruling in their favor. Some of them, while another portion were more aware. Similar to the fake Democrats running against the Democrats picked by the Republican Party. I think some of the Republicans were genuinely out of the loop for that since they were not in the direct circle. That is why they were already planning to run an Extraordinary Session to pass that bill through again.
If they were expecting the ruling to go their favor, there would be no need to put the taking away of collective bargaining rights in the bill. So I honestly think they thought the judges were going to act like proper judges, but were conveniently surprised by the ruling in their favor. To be honest, the four blatantly conservative judges scare me because it was their rulings to begin with… Particularly this. This is why I was against Prosser, because he ruled in favor of these things that ultimately broke our judicial system.
Believe it or not, that is the straw that broke the camel’s back for me for the conservative movement and made me switch to become independent… (that and when they seemed to switch between adoring our soldiers then demonizing them as soon as Obama was elected then told that I was a “stupid hippy for being so sensitive”.) which then I realized being an independent didn’t do me any good at all in this two party system so I moved to being a liberal. If there is ever a third party that is socially liberal but fiscally conservative that comes to power? I’ll be there. Keep in mind: neither Liberalism or Conservatism are evil. I just think currently the conservative movement is so twisted beyond belief that it’s hard to change especially with the people who simply coddle their movement and don’t try to actively fix these genuine problems.
I’m desperately awaiting a non-dilettante or shameless hack to reassure me this isn’t as bad as it looks. It appears to me the haste in which decision was slapped together could actually be more damaging than the twisted reasoning.
As Abrahamson points out, the majority evaporates the constitutional requirement for transparency in the legislature to four sentences. It substitutes WisconsinEye for public access, in essence ruling that the creation of that cable service amended the state constitution. This is astoundingly ironic in light of the majority’s straw-man claim that the Open Meetings Law did not amend the constitution.
And consider this. Not only is the Open Meeting Law effectively declared unconstitutional, any future legislative effort to improve transparency and access will now have to be viewed with this constricted and demented lens. At least until a sane majority is empaneled and reverses this mess.
Open records law was most certainly not ruled unconstitutional. The majority ruled that the law as it was written & duly passed by the state legislature – including the exemptions – are in effect. Read the law and then let’s talk. Tell me how 19.87 of the Wisconsin Code outlining the legislative requirements – has been ruled unconstitutional. In particular, explain why you think exemption 2 shouldn’t apply? Tell me why we should ignore the law as it is written.
“I don’t like it” doesn’t work. I suspect most here don’t. I certainly don’t like the fact that the legislature exempted themselves – and I’ve spoken out against it before when the issue has come up. But the solution isn’t for the courts to just disregard bad, stupid or annoying laws.
I’ve been reading some articles about cults, and it occurred to me that being a right-winger is much like being a member of a cult. Republicans are absolutely adamant about their beliefs, even when shown that those beliefs are founded on lies. Hence, we get Sarah Palin attempting to rewrite history by insisting that she was right about Paul Revere’s ride, when in fact she was completely wrong. When confronted with her mistake, she refuses to accept it. It’s brainwashing to the Nth Degree.
Being a Republican means one must swallow any kind of information doled out by other Republicans—even when that information is patently false. Republicans donate money to campaigns for wealthy Republican candidates with the same kind of abandon I see poor people donating money to state lotteries. In both cases, the donors are expecting a huge payback for all the dough they are handing over. And, in both cases, they don’t get jack.
Republicans “believe”, rather than understand. It doesn’t take a Rhodes scholar to crack open a book, or peruse an article, or go online and do a little research, but to Republicans, educating oneself is irrelevant. It’s more important to “believe” in what they are told. No questions asked. Facts are the evil bits circulated by left-wing demagogues. I once pointed out to a Republican that the GAO had published it’s own findings regarding the costs of the war in Iraq, which sharply contradicted what this fellow was saying. Not only did he not know what the GAO was (General Accounting Office), but when I explained what it was to him, he shrugged with a smirk and said: “The government lies all the time.” Jesus Christ would have a hard time convincing that guy he was wrong.
It is stunning to think that anyone with a scintilla of sense would think that raising taxes on the poor and middle classes while cutting huge tax breaks for the wealthiest in this country is somehow going to generate an enormous revenue stream that will put our country back on sound financial footing. It’s mind-boggling. Yet, Republicans continue to insist on these tax breaks for billionaires. You could sit down with a Republican and show him/her over and over again, using a calculator and any other visual aid, that this doesn’t work—it never has worked. And they will stare at you stubbornly, like recalcitrant children, and insist it’s the only way to ease the deficit. Why do they insist on these types of responses? Because they’ve been indoctrinated to “believe” in them. Whether it’s Ayn Rand, J. Paul Getty, Ronald Reagan, or the Tooth Fairy—they swallow the bullshit hook, line, and sinker.
Much of their unwillingness to see reality is due to the fact that many of them are products of homes where the following values were drummed into them from birth: “People of color are bad; poor people are that way because they are lazy; don’t trust the government; guns are good; God is going to come back to earth and smack people around for being disobedient; women need to know their place; our kind is superior to any other kind; being rich is good; pull yourself up by your own bootstraps; God helps those who help themselves.”
The only way I can see getting through to a Republican is for that person to have some sort of epiphany and understand that their entire world view is wrong. I won’t hold my breath for that to happen.
Interesting suggestion about the closeness to cult behavior that you see in the extreme right wing. I think you are on to something — and I also remember how difficult it was (“back in the day”) to deprogram a member of a cult.
There’s something else at work, as well, I’m afraid. Unfortunately, many people do not know how to think, to reason, to understand. My husband still teaches occasionally at the college level, though now just more advanced students. But when he was teaching lower level courses, he would come home frustrated at the number of students who thought they could make arguments based on what they “felt.” When he would ask them why they “felt” something (e.g., I “feel” that children do better if they don’t go into foster care), they had nothing to support their opinions. No facts, no principles — nothing. They just “felt” it, without apparent reason. And they really had a hard time understanding the need to have support for their arguments, beyond what they felt.
These were kids at UW-Madison, so they graduated from high school, presumably with reasonable grades. But they didn’t have the foggiest idea how to make an argument and support it. That makes it pretty easy to accept the governor saying that “We’re giving the localities the tools they need” without asking questions. It also makes them easy pickings for people who provide “reasons” for legislation that have nothing to do with the reality behind the legislation.
I’m not trying to fault anyone here. There are so many potential contributing factors to the difficulty we have with supporting arguments and with parsing arguments, that nothing is gained now by noting them. All we can do is try to reason, and to reason again, and to reason again.
Joanne, it’s far worse than what you say. Those students who don’t know how to make an argument and don’t even know the conventions for making one’s case can be dealt with. In politics we’ve got folks on the right making stuff up. Yes, even here in the comment section of a post. That’s not mere ignorance, but an active attempt at deception. Sure, they think they can get away with it because they are ignorant of the conventions for making a case. But they are ignorant of being ignorant, as well, thus think their assertions without evidence are equal to well-thought and backed arguments.
Sure, the folks at WingNutDaily foster cult-like behavior, but some of this is just good old ignorance, and also the notion that what they make up should be taken seriously, too. Unbelievable.
Wow did you here what the protesters did this weekend? First these deadbeats disputed a special Olympics event a week or so ago now this weekend they decided to disrupt a welcome home ceremony for our troops, real classy liberals.
This is an important discussion. The most common word heard today from people engaging in any kind of debate is ” believe”. I believe this, I believe that, etc. If something is believed strongly enough it takes on the quality of truth. If something is unpleasant to face one need only not believe it. Yikes.
What is known seems to be of little value anymore. Belief has trumped knowledge. This can be troublesome when it comes to things like climate change. All we need to address the problem is a firm decision to not believe in it. Yikes again.
I’ve got to go for now. I believe aliens have been stealing spare change from my penny jar, and I have to go do a recount. 🙂
Another nice example of behavior with blinders on is the response over here, where the guy respoded to the post without even fully reading it. Then he proceeded to spout off opinion, again without a fact in sight.
The smoldering remains of the Open Meetings Law and Article IV Section 10 of the Wisconsin Constitution, 130 years of case law, and any semblance of judicial and appellate procedure.
Besides that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
Looking at how everything went down last week with the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruling, I think some of the Republicans actually were not expecting that ruling in their favor. Some of them, while another portion were more aware. Similar to the fake Democrats running against the Democrats picked by the Republican Party. I think some of the Republicans were genuinely out of the loop for that since they were not in the direct circle. That is why they were already planning to run an Extraordinary Session to pass that bill through again.
If they were expecting the ruling to go their favor, there would be no need to put the taking away of collective bargaining rights in the bill. So I honestly think they thought the judges were going to act like proper judges, but were conveniently surprised by the ruling in their favor. To be honest, the four blatantly conservative judges scare me because it was their rulings to begin with… Particularly this. This is why I was against Prosser, because he ruled in favor of these things that ultimately broke our judicial system.
Believe it or not, that is the straw that broke the camel’s back for me for the conservative movement and made me switch to become independent… (that and when they seemed to switch between adoring our soldiers then demonizing them as soon as Obama was elected then told that I was a “stupid hippy for being so sensitive”.) which then I realized being an independent didn’t do me any good at all in this two party system so I moved to being a liberal. If there is ever a third party that is socially liberal but fiscally conservative that comes to power? I’ll be there. Keep in mind: neither Liberalism or Conservatism are evil. I just think currently the conservative movement is so twisted beyond belief that it’s hard to change especially with the people who simply coddle their movement and don’t try to actively fix these genuine problems.
I’m desperately awaiting a non-dilettante or shameless hack to reassure me this isn’t as bad as it looks. It appears to me the haste in which decision was slapped together could actually be more damaging than the twisted reasoning.
As Abrahamson points out, the majority evaporates the constitutional requirement for transparency in the legislature to four sentences. It substitutes WisconsinEye for public access, in essence ruling that the creation of that cable service amended the state constitution. This is astoundingly ironic in light of the majority’s straw-man claim that the Open Meetings Law did not amend the constitution.
And consider this. Not only is the Open Meeting Law effectively declared unconstitutional, any future legislative effort to improve transparency and access will now have to be viewed with this constricted and demented lens. At least until a sane majority is empaneled and reverses this mess.
Open records law was most certainly not ruled unconstitutional. The majority ruled that the law as it was written & duly passed by the state legislature – including the exemptions – are in effect. Read the law and then let’s talk. Tell me how 19.87 of the Wisconsin Code outlining the legislative requirements – has been ruled unconstitutional. In particular, explain why you think exemption 2 shouldn’t apply? Tell me why we should ignore the law as it is written.
“I don’t like it” doesn’t work. I suspect most here don’t. I certainly don’t like the fact that the legislature exempted themselves – and I’ve spoken out against it before when the issue has come up. But the solution isn’t for the courts to just disregard bad, stupid or annoying laws.
I’ve been reading some articles about cults, and it occurred to me that being a right-winger is much like being a member of a cult. Republicans are absolutely adamant about their beliefs, even when shown that those beliefs are founded on lies. Hence, we get Sarah Palin attempting to rewrite history by insisting that she was right about Paul Revere’s ride, when in fact she was completely wrong. When confronted with her mistake, she refuses to accept it. It’s brainwashing to the Nth Degree.
Being a Republican means one must swallow any kind of information doled out by other Republicans—even when that information is patently false. Republicans donate money to campaigns for wealthy Republican candidates with the same kind of abandon I see poor people donating money to state lotteries. In both cases, the donors are expecting a huge payback for all the dough they are handing over. And, in both cases, they don’t get jack.
Republicans “believe”, rather than understand. It doesn’t take a Rhodes scholar to crack open a book, or peruse an article, or go online and do a little research, but to Republicans, educating oneself is irrelevant. It’s more important to “believe” in what they are told. No questions asked. Facts are the evil bits circulated by left-wing demagogues. I once pointed out to a Republican that the GAO had published it’s own findings regarding the costs of the war in Iraq, which sharply contradicted what this fellow was saying. Not only did he not know what the GAO was (General Accounting Office), but when I explained what it was to him, he shrugged with a smirk and said: “The government lies all the time.” Jesus Christ would have a hard time convincing that guy he was wrong.
It is stunning to think that anyone with a scintilla of sense would think that raising taxes on the poor and middle classes while cutting huge tax breaks for the wealthiest in this country is somehow going to generate an enormous revenue stream that will put our country back on sound financial footing. It’s mind-boggling. Yet, Republicans continue to insist on these tax breaks for billionaires. You could sit down with a Republican and show him/her over and over again, using a calculator and any other visual aid, that this doesn’t work—it never has worked. And they will stare at you stubbornly, like recalcitrant children, and insist it’s the only way to ease the deficit. Why do they insist on these types of responses? Because they’ve been indoctrinated to “believe” in them. Whether it’s Ayn Rand, J. Paul Getty, Ronald Reagan, or the Tooth Fairy—they swallow the bullshit hook, line, and sinker.
Much of their unwillingness to see reality is due to the fact that many of them are products of homes where the following values were drummed into them from birth: “People of color are bad; poor people are that way because they are lazy; don’t trust the government; guns are good; God is going to come back to earth and smack people around for being disobedient; women need to know their place; our kind is superior to any other kind; being rich is good; pull yourself up by your own bootstraps; God helps those who help themselves.”
The only way I can see getting through to a Republican is for that person to have some sort of epiphany and understand that their entire world view is wrong. I won’t hold my breath for that to happen.
Interesting suggestion about the closeness to cult behavior that you see in the extreme right wing. I think you are on to something — and I also remember how difficult it was (“back in the day”) to deprogram a member of a cult.
There’s something else at work, as well, I’m afraid. Unfortunately, many people do not know how to think, to reason, to understand. My husband still teaches occasionally at the college level, though now just more advanced students. But when he was teaching lower level courses, he would come home frustrated at the number of students who thought they could make arguments based on what they “felt.” When he would ask them why they “felt” something (e.g., I “feel” that children do better if they don’t go into foster care), they had nothing to support their opinions. No facts, no principles — nothing. They just “felt” it, without apparent reason. And they really had a hard time understanding the need to have support for their arguments, beyond what they felt.
These were kids at UW-Madison, so they graduated from high school, presumably with reasonable grades. But they didn’t have the foggiest idea how to make an argument and support it. That makes it pretty easy to accept the governor saying that “We’re giving the localities the tools they need” without asking questions. It also makes them easy pickings for people who provide “reasons” for legislation that have nothing to do with the reality behind the legislation.
I’m not trying to fault anyone here. There are so many potential contributing factors to the difficulty we have with supporting arguments and with parsing arguments, that nothing is gained now by noting them. All we can do is try to reason, and to reason again, and to reason again.
Joanne, it’s far worse than what you say. Those students who don’t know how to make an argument and don’t even know the conventions for making one’s case can be dealt with. In politics we’ve got folks on the right making stuff up. Yes, even here in the comment section of a post. That’s not mere ignorance, but an active attempt at deception. Sure, they think they can get away with it because they are ignorant of the conventions for making a case. But they are ignorant of being ignorant, as well, thus think their assertions without evidence are equal to well-thought and backed arguments.
Sure, the folks at WingNutDaily foster cult-like behavior, but some of this is just good old ignorance, and also the notion that what they make up should be taken seriously, too. Unbelievable.
Wow did you here what the protesters did this weekend? First these deadbeats disputed a special Olympics event a week or so ago now this weekend they decided to disrupt a welcome home ceremony for our troops, real classy liberals.
This is an important discussion. The most common word heard today from people engaging in any kind of debate is ” believe”. I believe this, I believe that, etc. If something is believed strongly enough it takes on the quality of truth. If something is unpleasant to face one need only not believe it. Yikes.
What is known seems to be of little value anymore. Belief has trumped knowledge. This can be troublesome when it comes to things like climate change. All we need to address the problem is a firm decision to not believe in it. Yikes again.
I’ve got to go for now. I believe aliens have been stealing spare change from my penny jar, and I have to go do a recount. 🙂
Another nice example of behavior with blinders on is the response over here, where the guy respoded to the post without even fully reading it. Then he proceeded to spout off opinion, again without a fact in sight.
http://bloggingblue.com/2011/06/20/right-wing-ignorance-on-parade/