I’m no fan of waterboarding, because it’s torture, plain and simple. I’ve heard the argument from some that it’s not really torture, and I’ve also heard the argument that the ends justify the means when it comes to waterboarding, but in my book, this is the very definition of torture:
Over at Right View Wisconsin, Randy Hollenbeck, noted for previously posting his favorite racially inflammatory pictures of Barack Obama over at his blog on CudahyNOW, has made it clear he supports waterboarding and torture 100%:
Is it (waterboarding) torture? Yes, but I will not lose any sleep, nor will I feel my morals and principles compromised.
After reading Randy’s comment that he doesn’t feel his morals or principles would be compromised by supporting torture, I can’t help but wonder what exactly Randy’s morals and principles are, because my morals and principles tell me that torture is wrong, no matter what the circumstances. What’s more, I’d love to hear Randy explain if he’d be okay with Americans being waterboarded, and I’d love to hear him – or anyone else – rationalize how our nation can claim moral superiority over any other nation when we engage in waterboarding – a technique that was also used by Nazi Germany and Japan during World War II.
I think you answered your own question regarding his morals.
Regarding big Randy: One must first have morals and principles to compromise them.
Excellent point, Tim.
It is torturous, but clearly it is not used lightly. It is a mild form of torture while still quite effective. The people who jumped out of the twin towers while it was burning had it a lot worse than the guy who “thought” he was drowning. Randy didn’t really elaborate because he isn’t speaking to the readers who are one-sided, make attacks, fail to back them up, and then pat each other on the back. You paint a picture that those who waterboard are horrible Nazi’s without consideration. Your comparison is weak, and you are only fooling yourselves. Sometimes we must do things in life we don’t feel good about, but we still need to do them. I don’t like guns or death, but I will kill to protect my family. That does not make me wrong and yes, circumstances do matter–a lot. They certainly matter to the police and to the courts and to the families of the deceased. You must put yourself in someones shoes before you judge. Who are you to advocate putting their comfort ahead of our safety? What is your alternative? Where are your morals? What are your principles? Why don’t you elaborate?
So you’re okay with torture, so long as it’s not “used lightly?”
The fact that you’re differentiating between “mild” forms of torture is mind boggling, because in my mind torture is torture.
As to your questions about my morals and principles, I’ll just note that I believe my position on torture is both moral and principled, because I tend to believe that we should treat others as we’d want to be treated.
By your twisted logic, I can only assume you’d support the use of waterboarding and other forms of torture against American soldiers captured in war, since you seem to support the use of torture against our enemies. After all, you’d be a hypocrite if you didn’t.
Let me take it one step further than Randy. I am ok with it and I will even watch if it saves lives. Do I think it’s a good thing? No. Do I enjoy torturing people? God no. It’s terrible thing. There is a time and a place for torture, however. This is modern warfare. Wake up. If you do not realize this, you are fooling yourself. So by your “fair treatment” logic, let’s just go into your country, blow up some key buildings and kill innocent civilians who DIDN’T ASK FOR A WAR, how’s that for fair treatment? These assholes got involved. You are protecting criminals you fools! As far as as torturing American’s, that is just stupid. No American’s are getting saved from any torture by being nice to these animals. You are the corrupted twister of logic. Oh, and it’s not hypocrisy unless I agree to your fair treatment principle, which I don’t because why? That’s right, say it with me. It’s a fucking war. They want you to think they’re victims. It’s how they operate, with lies. Get on the right side.
Wait….so you believe torture is a terrible thing, but you’re ok with it and would even watch it?
That makes absolutely no sense.
The fact that I am differentiating between “mild” forms of torture is only mind boggling to simplistic idiots who can only think in black and white. The world is gray. If I waterboard you is it torture? If I give you a swirly, is it torture? If I spray you with a hose, is it torture? If I throw a water balloon at you, is it torture? If I spash you in the pool, is it torture? If it is, I better tell my kids to knock it off! Please don’t make me explain it to you on the other end of the spectrum, because I don’t think your tiny mind could handle it.
Then why did we prosecute Japanese soldiers following WWII for performing the exact same procedure on American and other Allied soldiers?
How do you justify the United States using this procedure? Do the ends justify the means?
I do not agree with torture, however, I will not judge anyone who used it post 9/11. If that makes me a hypocrite, so be it.
In war people have to do things to save lives and stay alive themselves. How can any of us who are safe behind our keyboards ever judge those who have to make life and death decisions daily. Agree or disagree with the principle, but there is no misunderstanding the reason for why torture was used.
I beg to differ, Mark. According to people who have actually BEEN water boarded, it is NOT a mild form of torture. How in the hell can you even use the word “mild” next to the word “torture” anyway? WTF is wrong with your thinking?
Maybe both Mark AND Hollenbeck need to experience the mildness of water boarding so that they can both understand that TORTURE IS FUCKING TORTURE. GOT THAT?
And how many of these victims do you know personally? Do you take their accounts first hand? On the one hand, it is true torture. It’s not mild to those who receive it, of course not. It is pure fear to them. Torture is just a word. I am asking you to look at a higher purpose here. You are getting angry because I speak the truth. You mean well I am sure, but your understanding of the issue is corrupted.
On the other hand, maybe you desensitized, ultramodernized Starbuck’s drinking children need to see some real fucking torture so you may know the difference. Perhaps you should watch your child jump out of a skyscraper while on fire before you finally get it, Jan.
Because if hypothetically, “my” child was killed like this and I thought you the “terrorist sympathizer” might be protecting the asshole’s who did, it well Jan, you might just beg for some water.
Asshole. I saw my brother after losing his left arm in an accident. I fucking know what pain looks like. Both Christopher Hitchens and former Chicago radio personality Mancow were water boarded and filmed while it was inflicted on them. You can see their reactions, shithead.
I don’t drink at Starbuck’s because I can’t fucking afford their coffee so I buy beans and grind them at home. Meet me in person and see how desensitized I am, SOB.
Does anyone else find it ironic that the guy calling us children is probably younger than us?
Well, I know he’s younger than me.
Having said that, I guess I always believed that what separated our country from two-bit dictatorships like those in Iraq (pre-invasion), Libya, etc. etc. is the fact that we respected human rights and didn’t engage in torture against prisoners. While you may condone an “at all costs” approach to dealing with terrorists and criminals, I’d rather see our Constitution and morals honored and upheld.
The fact that you’re here defending torture speaks volumes about how desensitized YOU are.
So, you have two choices:
1) STFU both of you. 2)Encourage your own embarrassment and defeat all night if you want to for the whole world to see. You don’t stand a chance. I assure you that you will run out of steam long before I do.
Let’s recap here, I am protecting burning babies, you are protecting wet camel jockeys. Yeah, you guys are pretty much sick fuck status right now.
Racism seems alive and well, at least from the wording of this entry. It is easy to condone treating people as nonhuman when you actually think of them as nonhuman.
I recommend no more feeding of the troll. And if anyone knows his real name, then I recommend plastering it all over the place so regular citizens of our state have half a chance to take cover when this racist piece of trash comes along.
Disclosure: My ancestry is Arabic. I take huge exception to the racist garbage spewed by this guy.
Steven, rest assured Mark won’t be bothering us much anymore, because despite his comments about not running out of steam, I still control who comments on my little slice of the intertubes.
I’m not advocating banning, though I might advocate publication of his racist crap through his interoffice email. . .
It’s not like I administer the entire email system or anything. And if you were dumb enough to call, don’t worry. I have no knowledge of telecommunications or IT, and I have no friends who are attorneys or judges either. I am completely helpless. I am also not a vengeful or passionate about what I do.
Actually, a more accurate recap is that you’re a bigot who’s defending the use of torture.
So who’s the sick fuck?
Zack, if you would just read everything, all of it, not just parts you would understand the greater purpose. We can’t just let these guys do whatever they want without extracting information that can save lives. None of you has offered an alternative, so you all fail in my book. None of you can stay on topic, none of you can reinforce your positions any stronger apparently, you just want to attack me personally. Might I remind you that I was civil until Fran Drescher started swearing at me like a dyke.
I agree that we can’t let terrorists “do whatever they want” without trying to get information from them and stop what they’re doing.
However, I disagree that we need to utilize torture in order to get information and stop terrorist activities.
Anyone who’s against free speech is a sick fuck. Go ahead and filter my comments just because I disagree with you. It’s not like I can’t bash you on another website. Maybe it’s best for you within the safety of this feed. Think about it.
LOL.
Thanks for proving my point. You can most certainly bash me on another website if you so choose, but I’m willing to bet people won’t put much value on what someone like you has to say, considering the vile and vitriolic things you’ve written here.
Speech is perfectly free, Mark. Go shout on the street corner. But you’re in Zach’s house here, and since you don’t have the common decency to pack even a gram of politeness into your speech, you’re going to be out of here.
Let me know if you like the title of the article I am posting on my own site today:
ZACH W: “Burning Babies is A-Okay!”
How that for twisted logic. Let’s see how deep the rabbit hole goes, shall we?
Randy’s words as you quote them were:
Is it (waterboarding) torture? Yes, but I will not lose any sleep, nor will I feel my morals and principles compromised.
No where in there does he say he supports waterboarding. No where. Read it over and over again. Are you blind AND stupid? Go get another starbucks you fucking child. You’re not ready to play with the big boys.
Mark,
You commented on one of my posts that you’re out there collecting a paycheck while we are screwing around, yet your comments started here at 10:38 pm and end at 4:10 am, so you’re clearly not working either second or third shift, and if you’re working first shift you’re up mighty late.
What kind of paycheck are you collecting?
Oh, and John McCain has denounced waterboarding as torture. As a 5 year POW I think he’s got more authority on the topic than you.
Mark you touched on the whole essence of the story. Randy has no morals or principles to compromise….it appears you two have much in common.
Neither of you has the balls to face the topic, you just try to distract me with your McCain brother bullshit that is completely unrelated. Mccain has a vagina, POW or not. He’s part of the problem. Why don’t you children back up what you say. You think you can’t afford Starbucks because you are weak-minded. Come face to face with me and see how brave you are, and bring a man with two arms.
Wow, you’re unhinged. I’d advise you to seek professional help, but you probably don’t have health insurance to cover it.
Mr Dr. says I’m perfectly ok, but everyone else is crazy.
I hope you fucking die soon. I don’t apologize, and I mean every word.
How in the heck did you get his resume?
Guys, I am here to argue about the topic, not take it personally. However, if you mess with the bull you are going to get the horns. Let’s all get control over ourselves. If you want to fuck with me outside of this blog, be prepared to face the consequences.
You say that you’re here to argue the topic and not take it personally, yet you’ve hurled multiple insults at folks who’ve tried to engage you in a dialogue. If you want to have a debate here, then have a debate, but do it without the personal insults and inappropriate racial language.
If you can’t abide by those simple rules then you’ll find yourself without the ability to dialogue here.
A few months ago, you chided me about a word I used that was offensive to some regarding someone with a disability. Here’s your pal Mark mocking my incredibly strong, courageous, and heroic brother after losing his left arm. I’ve given up on this blog. You can have Mark and his disgusting shit. I’m done posting on here. Evidently, it’s not the good folks you want to encourage here but the idiots. Good luck to you.
I’m also done reading this blog. I’ll find others with zero tolerance for right-wing assholes.
Oh, and I’ll just add that I’m not perfect – far from it. You say I essentially screwed up how I handled this situation, and I can’t say that I don’t see your point.
Jan, you didn’t read the whole thing. He will be gone shortly. In Blog time, that is not always instant.
Not “He will be gone shortly;” he’s already gone. As I noted earlier, I shouldn’t have let things go on as long as they did, and I’ll take any criticism for that. Jan’s right to be upset at me, but the problem has been dealt with.
Wow. I can’t believe what I just read. Where do I begin?? Zach, Jan is not right. All Jan ever does when she posts comments on this blog is call names and attack others who have different POVs. So, in my opinion, if she dishes it, and dishes it, and dishes it, she should be able to take it without pouting about how she will never read this blog again. Having been on the receiving end of Jan’s tirades…she does not have tolerance for other POVs and does not miss a chance to call people who have different POVs names. She is so obnoxious I can hardly stand reading HER comments.
In this case, she had no tolerance for a racist. Neither do I. She was right. And you are the racist, likely.
Steven…what Jan wrote in her comment was that she was upset over Mark mocking her brother. She didn’t say anything about the racist term he used. So…you are wrong along with Jan who mocks everyone she doesn’t agree with.
Jan, Mark’s done posting here, and while I wanted to “chide” him for what he said about your brother and for the racist language he used, I felt that you and others did a better job than I could have of calling him out for what he said.
Take that for what it’s worth.
Did you miss the sexist comment? Sigh.
I think there was a lesbian comment in there as well. What a clown.
He actually started off okay, it’s an interesting debate topic of when the end justifies the mean. And in what scenarios?
But my lord, poor boy couldn’t hold his liquor.
Mark, it is obvious here that you are talking to a wall. Maybe you should troll elsewhere.